Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by Noodles03, Jan 2, 2019.
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Something is happening with my beatiful pics. Sorry
@Ivanko , thank you for sharing and your English is really good.
I actually 100% noticed the same thing and assumed it was a little of both reasons
@Ivanko , I forgot to ask, have you ever med ball throws? And if so, have you notice any carryover to boxing?
@Sano , another question for you. Between med ball throws and power clean, which will have a higher carryover to boxing?
No, just stop.
You want speed, flexibility, strength, and endurance. Also consider that grappling is more pulling motions than pushing motions and striking is more pushing motions.
Going pure power is not going to serve you well.
My opinion that it happened because kettlebell swing is a compound move, where all the body muscles are engaged. And all compound moves develop intermuscular coordination. Increased power of punches can be explained by the fact that your muscles are acting together in more efficient, synchronous way, like an orchestra playing symphony.
I used to throw medball as a part of a cooldown routine for 4 years after each training session when I did boxing. We had only one type of med ball at that time, a big one maybe 10 kg, i don't know exactly. Normally we split in pairs and tossed it to each other from the opposite corners of the ring. We stayed in boxing stance and threw the ball imitating jab, cross, hooks by each hand, then we did underhand vertical squat throw, chest pass like in basketball, and with two hands from behind of your head. We always tried to throw in the face of your opponent as hard as possible, and the opponent was to catch it, block it or slip from it. Normally, new comers were not able to throw it far enough and he came clother, and consecuently sooner or later he would receive the ball in his rookie face)))
The main rule was not to hit the ring light above the ring. It was a mortal sin. You would better escape immediately from the boxing gym. The trainer used to turn berserk immediately, and normally you finished up in knock out from a liver punch))) Once it happened to me. He hit me in abs, but I plummeted to the floor like a stone and imitated that I cannot breathe. He left me alone.
Jokes aside, medball throws are vital for boxing, plese never exclude them from your training routine. The move is actually your loaded punch. Even you can easily use them after finishing Oly clean and jerk. 2-3 weeks before your fight or a tournament you must remove all the weightlifting, thus medball throws will remain one of the few exercises to preserve your strength level.
Now medball with different weight are available, so you can even do numerous routines with increasing weight. For example if you feel not completely good (catch a cold or sleep not good previous night) for clean and jerk, you can do medball tosses with a ball heavier that usual. In this way you receive a muscle stress, but not overtraining.
I would dare also to answer your second question. Cleans and jerks will have higher carryover to your strength, explosiveness, speed to some extent than medball throws. It is not for boxing. You will receive the profit to boxing if you integrate these exercises into your boxing training. Boxing should be priority. If you beaten in sparring and today is a lifting day, just skip it. Go home, sleep, eat properly. When you are fresh, then do lifts of ball tosses, kettlebells, whatever. Everything will benefit.
One more remark concerning cleans and jerks. If you don't want to have injuries, you cannot do oly lifts alone, you would need to include deadlifts and hyperextensions, squats, shrugs, overhead barbell or dumbell presses to strengthen your body.
I am fully agree with @Sano who said that it's all about planning and periodization. Also if you are not a heavyweight, you need to watch your bodyweight.
Please train smart, plan thoroughly, explore your body, especially how you recover, and study all the time.
Noodles03, each medball throw, that I have describe above, we repeated 10 times. After we completed all the throws, we usually gave place to another pair. If there were not many people in the gym, we used to throw unless we are bored. Trainer never made us to throw the ball more than on complete sequence of 10 reps for each throw.
For your attention is the wonderful article named DEVELOPING A STRENGTH-POWER PROGRAM FOR AMATEUR BOXING. Chances are you have already discussed it, if not, I would be happy to read your opinions.
So Olympic lifts don’t require speed, flexibility, or strength? Just pure power?
I don’t even know what you’re trying to get at with your motion stuff.
You are going to want higher reps, you are also going to want to focus on that you actually use. Since you step on a scale having development that is not being used is taking away from development you will use. Having super big legs is not needed, you want them strong but not too heavy. In pure wrestling enough to easily carry the weight of another person. Match with gains to what you actually use so you are not carrying dead weight and you want endurance.
That does make a lot of sense to me
@Ivanko , thank you again for the info and I’ll definitely read the article that you posted later. lol but that was rough about the trainer giving you a body shot. The worst I ever gotten from a trainer was a smack to the head with his focus mitts for lowering my guard.
You mean a snapping motion?
Soviet sport, Soviet discipline)))
What about the force vs velocity curve? Throwing punches is using one’s body weight so why bother with any kind of lifting even only?
Ivanko mentioning throwing medicine balls would make sense to me more. I came across some material by Stuart McGill as he has a great interest in MMA and seems to refer to MMA fighters and jiujitsu fighters interchangeably. Maybe he was talking specifically about jiujitsu sports fighters coming to him for evaluation of lower spine problems.
He mentions stiffening of the core and minimizing energy leaks, and transferring impulse which is force over a small time frame to strike with maximum damage to the opponent.
Sorry for the tangential post.
I get the point you're trying to make but the force velocity curve (FVC) is not always entirely applicable to all aspects of a sport. Sometimes you want to train different attributes at different places on the FVC, and another important thing to remember is that attributes within the sport itself can be placed at several places on the FVC. If we are talking pure handspeed and reaction time, then that would be near the max velocity end of the spectrum. If we are talking punching power, then that would be closer to strength-speed or max power on the curve. Most of the power is generated in the legs and lower body, and while the velocity matters as well (which is why you should train that too), maximum power and force production matters more for punching power.
Think about how vertical jumping is a bodyweight movement, however oly lifting and trapbar jumps can improve your vertical. Punching and kicking is different yes, because you're not overcoming the same inertia with your entire bodyweight, however the explosive power and ground reaction forces during a punch or kick is simular.
Medballs are excellent as well yes, and something I'd do more towards the end of the power block getting more into the sport specific power phase. Oly lifting or derivatives I'd use at the begining of the block to build the more powerful engine initially.
Yeah I've read the McGill study. I like McGill but he's a tad narrow minded sometimes and he is obsessed with core bracing for back pain (which is not always the answer). With that said, he's done some interesting work. You're referring to something called the double peak, or the double pulse. The core tightens when you initiate the strike (promixal stability, first pulse), then it relaxes a bit, then it tightens again upon impact (second pulse). There's no doubt that the ability to both isometrically and dynamically engage your core is very important for producing power, which is why it's something you should program as well.
You can read it here if you want: https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/..._a_Double_Peak_in_Muscle_Activation_to.8.aspx
Would you have a transitional block where the athlete does a bunch of explosive med ball throws or something equivalent (Russian twists, landmine presses, etc), do it concurrently. or skip that stuff altogether since it's mostly similar to oly lifting? For someone who isn't a competitive lifter do you think the barbell part of the equation matters a lot, or would something like Westside-Style dynamic effort be a substitive for athletic purposes?
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