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Yeah, Townsend Saunders also came in with quite the wrestling pedigree but had mediocre results in MMA.
To be fair, he fought Pat Militech and Mikey Burnett in his only two fights. Maybe if he was eased into the sport he would've found more success.Yeah, Townsend Saunders also came in with quite the wrestling pedigree but had mediocre results in MMA.
I didn't include him because he arguably beat a legendary champion Pat Miletich in their fight. (Certainly he would have by modern scoring standards) And his second fight was Mikey Burnett, an absolute beast back then.
He actually had more success against better guys than either Jackson or Alger did.
The logic in this case is what's at fault here.
First, there's a clear strawman. You argue against the argument "wrestlers can succeed without any other skills in MMA" in the 3rd paragraph. No one has ever argued that.
CorninginChristianburg said:Nobody clearly believes that, or wrestlers transitioning from wrestling to MMA wouldn't train anything but wrestling, and clearly they don't.
CorninginChristianburg said:Then you proceed to just list a small handful of anecdotes.
CorninginChristianburg said:Wrestlers are still overwhelmingly dominant in MMA today
Yeah, I discussed this on a threat not long ago. Starting your MMA career against Prime Militech and Burnett is one of the toughest 2-fight series anyone has faced. Burnett was a very good wrestler himself and had a strong boxing background. That allowed him to do one of the best early sprawl-n-brawl performances.
One thing worth considering is big-name wrestlers often get thrown to the wolves early on (as Saunders did). Lesnar is another example. After one tune-up fight in Japan, he was fighting strong gatekeepers or Top 10 guys by his second MMA match.
Burnett is such a case of "what could have been". Incredibly physically strong and athletic. Very good wrestler. Very good takedown defense. Damn near impossible to submit in his heyday. Good striking for his time. Still very young.
Unfortunately, he trained at the Lion's Den, which meant he had shit cardio. Unfortunately, he got a girl pregnant and since there wasn't much money in MMA, raised his kid instead.
In an alternate MMA timeline, Burnett is a legendary champion, one of the greatest welterweights/lightweights of all time.
Most of those guys did super intense training and calisthenics and sometimes won by cardio more than anything else (Shamrock vs. Tito, Mo Smith vs. Coleman).
What you're not comprehending is the idea that some beliefs might have warrant attached to them. You bring up a few anecdotes, you could bring up a few more, that doesn't actually convey your point. What you are attacking is an expectation. What would be necessary to convey your point that their expectations were unwarranted is to prove that they should not have believed that certain athletes based on their past credentials would be successful in MMA, and that would require, in this case, proving that wrestlers were not successful in MMA, generally speaking. Not just that a handful of people were not successful in MMA.It's not so "small" when one considers how small the number of guys even competing in MMA to any serious degree was back then, a tiny fraction of the number of fighters active today. And there were other examples, I simply didn't want to bore my readers when I had effectively conveyed my point.
Wrong a third time. Wrestling is still the single best skill to have in MMA, but wrestlers are not "overwhelmingly dominant" on anything except the low-level regional circuit.
Neither Frank Shamrock nor Mo Smith trained at the Lion's Den back then. In fact, they had split apart from the Lion's Den to form their own team with Kohsaka called The Alliance, which predates Miletich as the first quality MMA team ever.
Frank Shamrock wasn't even particularly good back when he trained at the Lion's Den, and according to many guys there (Bohlander for instance, who has no stake in this discussion), was far from the most talented guy.
Then he splits off from Lion's Den, stops training like a retard, and becomes one of the greatest ever...which proves my point.
I could write pages on all the potentially legendary careers the Lion's Den ruined. Burnett, Guy Mezger, Petey Williams, and Jerry Bohlander should have been so much more. (Incidentally, 4 guys who suffered from poor cardio)
I realize Wikipedia isn't an infallible source, but it claims Smith trained for Coleman at the LD:
"While training with the Lion's Den, Maurice Smith defeated Mark Coleman to win the UFC Heavyweight Championship, and became the first striker to survive the attack of a world class wrestler. Smith later joined forces with Lion's Den fighter Frank Shamrock to form their own team, called The Alliance. Coleman, after losing two fights in a row to Lion's Den fighters, went to train with the Lion's Den and was coached and cornered by Ken Shamrock at UFC 18."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion's_Den_(mixed_martial_arts)
mkt said:While I haven't seen any of those fights in years, I recall guys like Bohlander and Mezger winning a lot of 10-minute plus fights (no rounds), vs. Gurgel, Kevin Jackson, Christophe Leininger, etc.
mkt said:I also remember hearing that your namesake (Varelens) trained with Frank Shamrock at some point..that was when he lost about 50 pounds and looked a lot better.
Frank or Ken? I wasn't aware of either, though; neat. When did that happen?