Okinawan Karate Incomplete System?

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

What do you know about karate to say there’s ‘no karate’ in the way he fights? Why because he doesn’t fight like a point fighter? Because he doesn’t look like the machidas or wonderboy?

do you know enough about karate to even make that statement? Same for Silva and TKD. The idea his ability to kick isn’t from being a 5th degree blackbelt in TKD is absurd.

you understand that full contact KB evolved from karate in both the US and Japan, and basically became karate without the 3Ks training methodology.

trying to pigeonhole karate fighters to look a certain specific way is a bullshit and ignorant view of karate and what makes someone a karate fighter.


Does this look like machida’s way of fighting?


Or how about this? Does this look like wonderboy’s?


giga chickadze is another UFC karateka who is on his way to becoming a champion, are you going to say he isn’t a karate fighter as well?

You tried a strawman by bringing up Silva’s WC experience.
No one would claim a fighter spending a year or two training karate would count as them having a karate base.
All those people listed as karate fighters have 5+ years training karate before they started any serious cross training.
As for Silva idk what the typical rate of advancement is for TKD in Brazil, but to be 5th he probably has well over a decade of experience.

I know enough about full contact fighting to know that there is no karate / hardly any karate in Lawler's fighting. He has a primarely western boxing based style with some rather generic kicking and very developed dirty boxing in the clinch. That's Robbie Lawler. It's too easy to say "you are no karate expert therefore you cannot see the influence of horseshit-ryu in Lawler's style". This is bullshit. By that account, only karateka are qualified to identify karate. Maybe that's why you guys keep on hallucinating karate everywhere.

Then, the stuff you posted looks like typical bullshido-ryu and has hardly any real fighting application. Nobody uses that stuff in the cage. So it doesn't look like Machida and Thomson, who do shotokan. So what is your point? That there are various styles of karate? I know that already.

Then, Anderson uses primarely western boxing and MT in his fighting style. This should be clear to anybody. Maybe he has some TKD, but it is nothing in magnitude compared with those two. So he is no TKD fighter.

Maybe there is some karate in Giga's fighting - I cannot comment.

BTW, I think kyokushin / knock-down karate is legit. You can clearly see the kumite patterns of kyokushin in Dutch kickboxing, by the way. Then, I think Shotokan is largely crap. It gives an edge to some very few fighters like Machida and Wonderboy. But it is an inferior style.
Lastly, at the end of the garbage scale is Okinawan, all the ryu stuff. Absolutely useless, and any succesful application of that shit in the cage is made up in your mind.

 

[JohnPJones]

I know enough about full contact fighting to know that there is no karate / hardly any karate in Lawler's fighting. He has a primarely western boxing based style with some rather generic kicking and very developed dirty boxing in the clinch. That's Robbie Lawler. It's too easy to say "you are no karate expert therefore you cannot see the influence of horseshit-ryu in Lawler's style". This is bullshit. By that account, only karateka are qualified to identify karate. Maybe that's why you guys keep on hallucinating karate everywhere.

Then, the stuff you posted looks like typical bullshido-ryu and has hardly any real fighting application. Nobody uses that stuff in the cage. So it doesn't look like Machida and Thomson, who do shotokan. So what is your point? That there are various styles of karate? I know that already.

Then, Anderson uses primarely western boxing and MT in his fighting style. This should be clear to anybody. Maybe he has some TKD, but it is nothing in magnitude compared with those two. So he is no TKD fighter.

Maybe there is some karate in Giga's fighting - I cannot comment.

BTW, I think kyokushin / knock-down karate is legit. You can clearly see the kumite patterns of kyokushin in Dutch kickboxing, by the way. Then, I think Shotokan is largely crap. It gives an edge to some very few fighters like Machida and Wonderboy. But it is an inferior style.
Lastly, at the end of the garbage scale is Okinawan, all the ryu stuff. Absolutely useless, and any succesful application of that shit in the cage is made up in your mind.

Lmao, full contact continuous fighting with grappling is bullshido now?
You’re butthurt karate is extremely competitive in MMA and keep making shit up to justify your phobia.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Lmao, full contact continuous fighting with grappling is bullshido now?
You’re butthurt karate is extremely competitive in MMA and keep making shit up to justify your phobia.

I didn't see any of that. In the first vid it's some hot girl doing kata and choregraphed TMA sequences. I didn't watch the second vid. Can you give timestamp?

But something tells me you are utterly delusional so I will let you have fun with your hidden kata technique. There is no excuse in 2021 to be that delusional about useless TMAs given all that is available.

EDIT: I concede that this format is of sparring is fine. The two guys suck and it's very sloppy, but it is much better than anything with "ryu" at the end that I have seen in my life so far. Would you say that all ryu stuff schools spar like that? I think it is a small minority.

 

[JohnPJones]

I didn't see any of that. In the first vid it's some hot girl doing kata and choregraphed TMA sequences. I didn't watch the second vid. Can you give timestamp?

But something tells me you are utterly delusional so I will let you have fun with your hidden kata technique. There is no excuse in 2021 to be that delusional about useless TMAs given all that is available.

EDIT: I concede that this format is of sparring is fine. The two guys suck and it's very sloppy, but it is much better than anything with "ryu" at the end that I have seen in my life so far. Would you say that all ryu stuff schools spar like that? I think it is a small minority.

Maybe you should watch the entire video then. Good job ya played yourself, but roughly 1:22 since watching a 5 minute video was too much for you.

I would say most goju schools spar like that, with the biggest difference being the amount of time allowed on ground fighting.

As for the second one, yeah it’s sloppy, but not much sloppier if any more than most any other ammy fight event is likely to see.

wado, isshin, and uechi, are such a small percentage of karateka based on my experience there’s not enough data for me to say what the norm is

 

[Matsukaze]

So tegumi was the base of karate and you believe that tegumi (grappling hands) was already established before evolving to To-de (Chinese Hand)?

Funakoshi talks about the Okinawan Te-gumi in one of his books ( the title escapes me at the moment ). He mentions how it was the native art of wrestling

 

[panamaican]

There's a difference between the origin of the katas and the origin of the martial art itself.

Many of the katas have Chinese origins. But the base martial art is the Okinawan martial art of tegumi. If you combine the striking from Chinese martial arts with the grappling from tegumi, you get karate. Is it an incomplete system? Nope. Masters used to train a single kata for extended periods of time, truly mastering it. That sort of commitment to a single kata has been largely replaced with knowing far more kata at a far more superficial level. But as anyone who trains martial arts will attest, there's only so many ways to punch, kick, throw and grapple. Very few systems teach ALL of them.

 

[zumbulare]

There are UFC fighter using Karate heavily in mma, but to say that anyone who trained Karate at some point (most of americans) is relying on primarily is insane. I am curious what makes one think that Lawller’s standup is based on Karate and not boxing?

 

[TheMaster]

To hopefully draw attention away from the god awful WC thread I’ll say this.

when trained properly with all the techniques karate encompasses Okinawan karate is probably the most well rounded art trained today

 

[Kertol]

Since the root of Okinawa Karate is the white crane kung fu, do you think some of the Chinese masters were holding back on some of the techniques that were taught to the Okinawans?

I never thought about this for this particular instance but it's probably true that they held back to foreigners as it seems like human nature to do so just like how Japanese hold back all their secrets to non-Japanese in Karate and Brazilians hold back to non-Brazilians in bjj.

 

[Noodles03]

I never thought about this for this particular instance but it's probably true that they held back to foreigners as it seems like human nature to do so just like how Japanese hold back all their secrets to non-Japanese in Karate and Brazilians hold back to non-Brazilians in bjj.

The thought came to me when I discover the term, “indoor students”. The term refers to select students that were worthy from their sifu to receive additional teaching.

 

[JohnPJones]

There are UFC fighter using Karate heavily in mma, but to say that anyone who trained Karate at some point (most of americans) is relying on primarily is insane. I am curious what makes one think that Lawller’s standup is based on Karate and not boxing?

What makes you think his stand up is based on boxing and not karate?

most Americans don’t do karate at some point.
And no one is claiming people who dabbled in karate when they were 12 for a few months or even a few years is using a karate base in MMA.

 

[SandisLL]

Masters used to train a single kata for extended periods of time, truly mastering it.

Well, if according to some lads old time training was at least 10 times per 1 week with morning and evening classes it is what it is for time alone devoted in training.

That sort of commitment to a single kata has been largely replaced with knowing far more kata at a far more superficial level. But as anyone who trains martial arts will attest, there's only so many ways to punch, kick, throw and grapple.

Well, a lot of ppl with high level achievements in kumite did not had the same in kata etc.
Some clubs does have even flow charts to place ppl in toutnaments according to previous results in kata/ kumite tournaments.

 

[zumbulare]

What makes you think his stand up is based on boxing and not karate?

most Americans don’t do karate at some point.
And no one is claiming people who dabbled in karate when they were 12 for a few months or even a few years is using a karate base in MMA.

are you serious dude, you saying his slugger style, hands up close to face, head movement by slipping left and right and rolling with punches is tough in dojos across US?

 

[JohnPJones]

are you serious dude, you saying his slugger style, hands up close to face, head movement by slipping left and right and rolling with punches is tough in dojos across US?

Karate schools teach hands up yes.
So he spent years and years learning to punch and kick in karate, and that’s not his base for when he punches and kicks in the UFC? Ok. Ya.
Makes total sense.

his striking base is obviously boxing that’s definitely where he learned to kick…

why can’t you retards accept that cross training doesn’t change a base.
No one says a wrestler’s base isn’t wrestling because they use arm bars and kimuras and triangle chokes in the ring.

 

[zumbulare]

Karate schools teach hands up yes.
So he spent years and years learning to punch and kick in karate, and that’s not his base for when he punches and kicks in the UFC? Ok. Ya.
Makes total sense.

his striking base is obviously boxing that’s definitely where he learned to kick…

why can’t you retards accept that cross training doesn’t change a base.
No one says a wrestler’s base isn’t wrestling because they use arm bars and kimuras and triangle chokes in the ring.

His MMA coach was Pat Miletich, who you also claim used Karate as his stiking MMA base, here is Pat’s instructional, are you saying this is
based on Karate and not Boxing


in following video if you scroll to 13. minute he covers stance. He shows boxing, muay thai and wrestling stance and his mma stance is hybrid of those 3. he never mentions Karate. there are multiple references to MT and boxing but not to
Karate.

But I guess you read his Wiki page and you know more about
Pat’s striking than he knows him self.

 

[JohnPJones]

His MMA coach was Pat Miletich, who you also claim used Karate as his stiking MMA base, here is Pat’s instructional, are you saying this is
based on Karate and not Boxing


in following video if you scroll to 13. minute he covers stance. He shows boxing, muay thai and wrestling stance and his mma stance is hybrid of those 3. he never mentions Karate. there are multiple references to MT and boxing but not to
Karate.

But I guess you read his Wiki page and you know more about
Pat’s striking than he knows him self.

Love the redirection.
People love redirecting when they’re losing

 

[zumbulare]

Karate schools teach hands up yes.
So he spent years and years learning to punch and kick in karate, and that’s not his base for when he punches and kicks in the UFC? Ok. Ya.
Makes total sense.

his striking base is obviously boxing that’s definitely where he learned to kick…

why can’t you retards accept that cross training doesn’t change a base.
No one says a wrestler’s base isn’t wrestling because they use arm bars and kimuras and triangle chokes in the ring.

i did not miss direct anything Pat was Robbies teacher and Pat was teaching MMA heavvily based on western boxing.
you claim first Robbie’s standup is based on karate. when i asked you what makes you think it based on karate and not boxing your answer was what makes you think its based on boxing. very mature answer. when you make factual statement burden of proof is on you.
You said he spent years learning how to kick and punch in karate. How do you know that?
you said plenty of karatekas are fighting with hands up slupping punches left and right. whick karate style teaches slipping and is there japanese name for slip? can you upload video of karateka fighting simulator to Robbie

 

[JohnPJones]

i did not miss direct anything Pat was Robbies teacher and Pat was teaching MMA heavvily based on western boxing.
you claim first Robbie’s standup is based on karate. when i asked you what makes you think it based on karate and not boxing your answer was what makes you think its based on boxing. very mature answer. when you make factual statement burden of proof is on you.
You said he spent years learning how to kick and punch in karate. How do you know that?
you said plenty of karatekas are fighting with hands up slupping punches left and right. whick karate style teaches slipping and is there japanese name for slip? can you upload video of karateka fighting simulator to Robbie

I said nothing about slipping, but good job making shit up.

tell me more about how Robbie learned kicking from western boxing. Weird how most of his strongest weapons listed are kicks…definitely learned that from boxing I’m sure.

different rulesets change the way people fight.
There’s an absolute shit ton of karate dojos that teach people for various kickboxing rulesets, particularly in Japan. Is it your belief that those dojos don’t teach people to have their hands up?

just because someone has a karate base doesn’t mean they have look like a point fighter to justify it.

 

[zumbulare]

I said nothing about slipping, but good job making shit up.

tell me more about how Robbie learned kicking from western boxing. Weird how most of his strongest weapons listed are kicks…definitely learned that from boxing I’m sure.

different rulesets change the way people fight.
There’s an absolute shit ton of karate dojos that teach people for various kickboxing rulesets, particularly in Japan. Is it your belief that those dojos don’t teach people to have their hands up?

just because someone has a karate base doesn’t mean they have look like a point fighter to justify it.

you are still avoiding to answer my questions.
how do you know he spent years practicing Karate?
Did he compete, did he get past yellow belt?
there are dojos in Japan and some other places teaching karate for other full contact sports. how confident there was such Karate dojo in Iowa, where Robbie lived and trained in late 90’s and early 2000’s?
he trained under Pat Miletich, according to Pat’s instructional videos I
posted, punches and kicks he teaches are based on MT and boxing, not once he mentions Karate.
Robbie likes to fight in pocket, punching range, where he slips punches and comes back with his counters, kind of like Canelo not nearly good as him. Which karatekas fight like that.

do karate instructors recommend and teach to bob and weave under punches like this?

which Karate style teaches to roll with punches, slips and bends at waist?

 

[JohnPJones]

you are still avoiding to answer my questions.
how do you know he spent years practicing Karate?
Did he compete, did he get past yellow belt?
there are dojos in Japan and some other places teaching karate for other full contact sports. how confident there was such Karate dojo in Iowa, where Robbie lived and trained in late 90’s and early 2000’s?
he trained under Pat Miletich, according to Pat’s instructional videos I
posted, punches and kicks he teaches are based on MT and boxing, not once he mentions Karate.
Robbie likes to fight in pocket, punching range, where he slips punches and comes back with his counters, kind of like Canelo not nearly good as him. Which karatekas fight like that.
View attachment 888065
do karate instructors recommend and teach to bob and weave under punches like this?

which Karate style teaches to roll with punches, slips and bends at waist?

You’re trying to claim cross training somehow means a fighter doesn’t have a karate base.
An assertion no one would make for boxing, MT, wrestling, or BJJ.

if boxing is his base why does he throw kicks? What boxing gym teaches people how to kick?