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Okinawan Karate Incomplete System?

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Noodles03, Sep 28, 2021.

  1. Noodles03 Purple Belt

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    Since the root of Okinawa Karate is the white crane kung fu, do you think some of the Chinese masters were holding back on some of the techniques that were taught to the Okinawans?
     
  2. Matsukaze Green Belt

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    I'm sure they probably did to an extent. Like the majority of your old school Okinawan masters would have students train a lifetime and only show a certain select the "secrets". I think the Okinawan styles that resemble anything Chinese related is Goju ryu and Uechi ryu
     
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  3. Sweeptheleg7 Yellow Belt

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    I don’t think it’s incomplete per se and I think it’s a mixture of white crane and some other southern styles and Okinawa martial arts. A lot of Chinese martial arts are often mixtures of multiple Kung fu styles to shore up the founders weakness in his original art. I’ve done some goju ryu and it has a lot of internal Chinese martial art elements mixed.
     
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  4. JohnPJones Purple Belt

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    The root of karate is not white crane
    The root of karate is not white crane Kung fu, or any Kung fu for that matter.
    The root of karate is tegumi a form of wrestling.
    Several styles of Kung fu influenced what eventually became the many styles of early Te, and later karate.

    karate is incomplete as are pretty much all arts, but karate when properly taught is one of the most complete styles of martial arts.
     
  5. JohnPJones Purple Belt

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    The Goju Ryu philosopher and Jesse enkamp on YouTube have some good videos about the history and evolution of karate.
     
  6. DoctorDeelon Brown Belt

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    A lot of the shit the Okinawan's came up with was probably a lot better than the original Chinese shit.

    Look at Quinton Tarantino - he steals everyone's ideas but makes them better.
     
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  7. Noodles03 Purple Belt

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    You can see the similarities between the Okinawan karate and the white crane kung fu.
     
  8. JohnPJones Purple Belt

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    similarities do not equate to the root of karate.
    Multiple different styles of Kung fu had different influences on different styles of karate. To say 1 style was the root of karate is flat out wrong.

    different okinawans went to different parts of China to learn Kung fu. Many Chinese people emigrated to Okinawa and brought Kung fu long before people like Miyagi and Funakoshi ever had the opportunity to travel to China.

    but again, that’s ignoring the fact that Kung fu was ADDED to tegumi/muto making tegumi the root of karate.
     
  9. Noodles03 Purple Belt

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    So tegumi was the base of karate and you believe that tegumi (grappling hands) was already established before evolving to To-de (Chinese Hand)?
     
  10. JohnPJones Purple Belt

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    That’s what the history shows, that’s what karate instructors from the early 1900s and late 1800s believed.
    The idea that a nation wouldn’t have created their own indigenous martial art and would only get martial arts from outside sources is absolutely asinine.
     
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  11. TheMaster Take The Road To Reality Double Yellow Card

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    Is there any such system that is 'complete'?
    MMA has shown this was never the case.
     
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  12. JohnPJones Purple Belt

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    To hopefully draw attention away from the god awful WC thread I’ll say this.

    when trained properly with all the techniques karate encompasses Okinawan karate is probably the most well rounded art trained today
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
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  13. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Vive le Québec libre !

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    Would be interested to see your data, though.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2021
  14. JohnPJones Purple Belt

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    Can find the site I was looking at earlier but here we have karate listed at 7 UFC champions.
    https://wayofmartialarts.com/best-martial-arts-for-mma-ranked-by-a-number-of-ufc-champions/

    mans considering KB is more of a type of fighting like MMA is rather than a style or art that moves karate up to #5 and we might want to look at the backgrounds of some of those kickboxers as well since so many karateka go into kickboxing
    For example at least 2 of the people they list as KB as their style held Dan rankings in karate when they did KB and when entering MMA and actively trained karate during both periods. I’m not familiar with the rest so I’d have to actually look into them specifically

    further inspection shows Robbie lawler also trained karate as well as TKD but the wiki doesn’t specify how longer or what ranks were achieved in either. However it does state he trained with pat militech immediately after graduating HS, and pat was also a karate blackbelt…safe to say he had plenty of karate in him when he fought.

    anthony Pettis was TKD trained and then began boxing so the KB category loses another person even if we consider KB it’s own style, meaning based off this info KB is down to 10 so far putting it tied with karate.
    Micheal bisping also began training karate at 19 but his true base is JJJ so the KB category loses another one putting karate easily above KB if my math is correct.

    I won’t say Rampage was a karateka, but he learned striking from a Bellator champ who is a karateka…so weird how karate seems to have a major influence on so many top tier UFC fighters and so many top tier MMA fighters in general…it sure is trash though
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
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  15. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Vive le Québec libre !

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    Ok you honestly give any value to this garbage of an article? They list GSP as part of like 5 disciplines and count Anderson as TKD.
     
  16. JohnPJones Purple Belt

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    I’ve already pointed out the article has its issues, can you refute any of the people who I listed as having karate bases for their fighting?

    bas rutten
    Chuck Liddell
    GSP
    Lyoto machida
    Robbie lawler
    Rose namajunes
    wonderboy
    Tim Sylvia
    Robert Whittaker
    Pat miletich
    Are all karateka who have been champions in the UFC. Can you refute that statement?

    also apparently Silva is a 5th degree blackbelt in TKD, and was set to try out for Brazil’s Olympic TKD team in 2015 until it was announced he wouldn’t, so what’s wrong with listing him as such?


    you don’t seem too good at debating or critical thinking for that matter.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
  17. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Vive le Québec libre !

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    Lol at some kata nerd trying to be condescending with me.
    You don't see the issue in trying to list Lawler as a karate guy and Anderson as a TKD guy? You know that an entire generation of fighters has to start in some garbage TMA because it is all that waa available sometimes in the 90s?
     
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  18. JohnPJones Purple Belt

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    And we’re well past that generation. That generation was the bas rutten and chuck liddell generation. Besides even for that generation KB was still widely available as its own thing in the 90s and early 00s. We’re roughly 30 years past UFC1 there’s been 20+ years for people to train non-TMAs and push TMAs out of the sport completely
    I really don’t get why people are so butthurt about TMAs being successful in MMA.
    There’s literally hundreds of professional MMA fighters who have a karate base.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021
  19. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Vive le Québec libre !

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    Ok, let's try this in a constructive way, if you want.
    The problem is that I disagree with your definition of a base. I am terribly sorry, but there is HARDLY any karate in the way Lawler fights, just as an example.
    There is no TKD in Anderson's game. Or maybe there is, but it is so marginal in comparison with his boxing and MT influence that you can't even mention TKD in his arsenal. Anderson fucked around with wing chun, too. Is he a wing chun fighter, now?
    It is always a matter of magnitude. You cannot cherry-pick the little bit of karate in an MMA fighter's arsenal and claim that this fighter is a karateka. If the karate is not palpable in a fighter's way of fighting, you cannot mention it.
    It is palbable in Machida, Wonderboy and Whittaker, ok that is granted. I know that GSP loves to larp as a karateka because it's part of his identity but let's be real here, GSP's karate influence is not big.
     
  20. JohnPJones Purple Belt

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    What do you know about karate to say there’s ‘no karate’ in the way he fights? Why because he doesn’t fight like a point fighter? Because he doesn’t look like the machidas or wonderboy?

    do you know enough about karate to even make that statement? Same for Silva and TKD. The idea his ability to kick isn’t from being a 5th degree blackbelt in TKD is absurd.

    you understand that full contact KB evolved from karate in both the US and Japan, and basically became karate without the 3Ks training methodology.

    trying to pigeonhole karate fighters to look a certain specific way is a bullshit and ignorant view of karate and what makes someone a karate fighter.


    Does this look like machida’s way of fighting?


    Or how about this? Does this look like wonderboy’s?


    giga chickadze is another UFC karateka who is on his way to becoming a champion, are you going to say he isn’t a karate fighter as well?

    You tried a strawman by bringing up Silva’s WC experience.
    No one would claim a fighter spending a year or two training karate would count as them having a karate base.
    All those people listed as karate fighters have 5+ years training karate before they started any serious cross training.
    As for Silva idk what the typical rate of advancement is for TKD in Brazil, but to be 5th he probably has well over a decade of experience.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021

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