Official Women's Division Discussion #27

[PurpleStorm]

Dern
Silva
Clark

Woo hoo!

 

[GBJohn]

Question. Would prime Dern beat prime Rousey?

To start some discussion, I'll say yes.

Edited to add: I know Dern is now at straw. And RR fought at fly & bantam.

Another question would be who has the better ground skills. I say Dern.

I assume the question is for MMA, not pure grappling. In that case, the fight would be Rousey's to lose as long as she fought smart. She *might* be able to beat Dern on the ground, but the only way the fight would end up on the ground is if Rousey took it there. If I was coaching her for this hypothetical fight, I'd simply tell her, "Clinch, toss her to the ground, back off. Lather, rinse, repeat, until she stops getting back up." Of course, Rousey might not have the cardio to keep that up. Alternatively, while Rousey's striking is rightly made fun of around here, I still think it's better than Dern's, so again, keep the fight standing and win an ugly kickboxing match.

 

[PurpleStorm]

I assume the question is for MMA, not pure grappling. In that case, the fight would be Rousey's to lose as long as she fought smart. She *might* be able to beat Dern on the ground, but the only way the fight would end up on the ground is if Rousey took it there. If I was coaching her for this hypothetical fight, I'd simply tell her, "Clinch, toss her to the ground, back off. Lather, rinse, repeat, until she stops getting back up." Of course, Rousey might not have the cardio to keep that up. Alternatively, while Rousey's striking is rightly made fun of around here, I still think it's better than Dern's, so again, keep the fight standing and win an ugly kickboxing match.

Thanks for the reply. Still think Dern would win but yours is probably the more popular take.

 

[Better Every Day]

Question. Would prime Dern beat prime Rousey?

To start some discussion, I'll say yes.

Edited to add: I know Dern is now at straw. And RR fought at fly & bantam.

Another question would be who has the better ground skills. I say Dern.

I think prime Rousey beats prime Dern in MMA, unless Rousey would let her ego interfere with her fight I.Q. I think Rousey had better stand up skills (as exemplified by her beating Bethe Correia and Sara McMann with pure striking, which I doubt Dern could do). I also think that Dern has rather poor takedown skills, so I don't think she could take Rousey down against her will. So I think prime Rousey wins with her stand-up skills.

As to who has better ground skills, I don't know. Too bad we won't get a chance to find out.

 

[PurpleStorm]

I think prime Rousey beats prime Dern in MMA, unless Rousey let her ego interfere with her fight I.Q. I think Rousey had better stand up skills (as exemplified by her beating Bethe Correia and Sara McMann with pure striking, which I doubt Dern could do). I also think that Dern has rather poor takedown skills, so I don't think she could take Rousey down against her will. So I think prime Rousey wins with her stand-up skills.

As to who has better ground skills, I don't know. Too bad we won't get a chance to find out.

Interesting. I guess no one's gonna change my mind. Yet. Thanks for your reply my friend. Hope all is well with you and your loved ones.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Thanks for the reply. Still think Dern would win but yours is probably the more popular take.

I agree with him. What is funny is that both women have good natural power when throwing hands but both are so damn bad at it, Dern even worse. But I can easily see Dern being completely unable to get the fight to the ground.

She also beat Davis on the feet. Davis was out of it after a single right hand from Rousey. It was just throw and face-punch until the ref saved her. This is what sucks. Rousey could have had great striking skills. She was also one hell of an athlete which was one of her primary advantages. Also had a chin on her because Amanda blasted her more than once and she stayed up. Sure, one more and she would have crumpled but this is Amanda we are talking about.

 

[PurpleStorm]

I agree with him. What is funny is that both women have good natural power when throwing hands but both are so damn bad at it, Dern even worse. But I can easily see Dern being completely unable to get the fight to the ground.

Okay all of the above posts are starting to convince me. You state it succinctly. The others also contributed. Since it's merely a hypothetical I'll reserve the right to change my mind. I'm always more interested in others' replies than my own thoughts, as I'm very new to watching mma.

Is everyone looking at Rousey's perceived size & strength advantages? Technique as well? You all have seen many more fights than me and I like all ya'll's posts. At least no has yet replied that it's solely because of a win / loss 'streak' or posted the RR purple pillow photo haha.

 

[PurpleStorm]

I assume the question is for MMA, not pure grappling. In that case, the fight would be Rousey's to lose as long as she fought smart. She *might* be able to beat Dern on the ground, but the only way the fight would end up on the ground is if Rousey took it there. If I was coaching her for this hypothetical fight, I'd simply tell her, "Clinch, toss her to the ground, back off. Lather, rinse, repeat, until she stops getting back up." Of course, Rousey might not have the cardio to keep that up. Alternatively, while Rousey's striking is rightly made fun of around here, I still think it's better than Dern's, so again, keep the fight standing and win an ugly kickboxing match.

What if it started on the ground like a pure grappling match? How can I better understand better RR's phenomenal judo. I'm not an RR hater or a Dern lover. I'm past that type of fanboyism. Everyone seems in agreement so far. But how does RR just wrestle her to the ground and then win. Wouldn't Dern just mess her up once it's on the ground. I understand how RR was. Also wondering if she was only great in her time frame when wmma participants really weren't well trained. Dern started at age 3. She burned out when she was first switching to mma. She's looking damn great now.

 

[PurpleStorm]

Its a shame Dern does not have great takedowns because once the fight gets to the ground she is amazing. A specialist when they are using their specialty in MMA should be dominant like Dern. This is why I am so disappointed in Female boxers. How are you going to be struggling striking vs a can and call yourself a boxer?

Do you think she'll improve a lot more at that since she's so new to wmma. Or are great takedowns something that take years more of practice or like 'you either have it or you don't' so to speak?

 

[PurpleStorm]

I'd dislike that matchup (for now at least) to tell the truth. I'd much rather see Dern, and Jandiroba for that matter, take on one of the middle ranking old guard - Esparza, Gadelha, Waterson. Throw the cat among the pigeons, rather than these glacial 14 v 15 matchups. Out with the old, in with the new!

Totally agree with 'in with the new' my friend. I really enjoy your posts. How do you think they'd stack up if that's their next one - Jandiroba vs. Dern.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Okay all of the above posts are starting to convince me. You state it succinctly. The others also contributed. Since it's merely a hypothetical I'll reserve the right to change my mind. I'm always more interested in others' replies than my own thoughts, as I'm very new to watching mma.

Is everyone looking at Rousey's perceived size & strength advantages? Technique as well? You all have seen many more fights than me and I like all ya'll's posts. At least no has yet replied that it's solely because of a win / loss 'streak' or posted the RR purple pillow photo haha.

Yeah. Rousey is bigger and stronger. When discussing either woman's striking technique is not a part of the conversation.

I mean, Rousey's was getting tore the fuck up running face first into Holm's shots. And while Holly does not have great power in her hands because she leans so far forward, Ronda helped her out with this. It took a head kick from Holm to drop her.

Look how quickly Amanda dropped Cyborg who is supposed to be able to use her hands and is even bigger and stronger. Yeah, Ronda would have hit the canvas in the next few seconds but had it taken only a few more she would have lasted longer than Cyborg.

Going to re-watch the Amanda/Cyborg fight to get a couple of details down and will edit this post.

Cyborg's knees hit the ground (or close) with only 30 seconds gone. She lands on all fours with 42 seconds elapsed. At this point Ronda was still on her feet (okay, her fight ended six seconds later). So, yeah, Ronda had a chin. Dern, no idea?

 

[Better Every Day]

Do you think she'll improve a lot more at that since she's so new to wmma.

I definitely think Dern can improve everywhere. I was not interpreting the word "prime" as meaning the best that she can ever be, but rather as meaning the best that she has ever been (so far).

 

[Eater of Souls]

What if it started on the ground like a pure grappling match? How can I better understand better RR's phenomenal judo. I'm not an RR hater or a Dern lover. I'm past that type of fanboyism. Everyone seems in agreement so far. But how does RR just wrestle her to the ground and then win. Wouldn't Dern just mess her up once it's on the ground. I understand how RR was. Also wondering if she was only great in her time frame when wmma participants really weren't well trained. Dern started at age 3. She burned out when she was first switching to mma. She's looking damn great now.

Ronda's takedowns were her specialty. She used a variety of them (contrary to the main section of the board who say "head and arm throw.") She used multiple different types of throws in her three round fight against Tate, who herself was really good in scrambles.

The only time she did not win a fight that she got to the ground was after she spent some time running face first into Holly's left hand. While Ronda did things differently that your standard BJJ grapplers, this was both a strength and a weakness. I think she would lock a sub in quicker than Dern but she would also give Dern more mistakes to capitalize on. Hard to say but for me one of the big things in ground grappling is not making mistakes (hell, any fighting really) so this would work against her a bit more. But there is also a size and strength advantage so I barely edge Rousey. If I were a betting man, which I am not, I would not put money down on it to go either way.

Good read here about Ronda's grappling:

https://artofgrappling.com/2013/12/29/ufc-168-rousey-tate-judo-throw-highlights-gifs/

 

[Eater of Souls]

Something else. In the main section of the board people still mock Ronda for face-planting here:

But it is the right thing to do. Over-rotating is how Liz took her back and cranked her. So Ronda adjusted her momentum/movement while she was still on one foot, bending her knee to drop straight down and avoid this happening again.

Rather like her mid-air adjustments vs. Zingano where she was on one foot and adjusted her position to come down and take Zigano's arm from an unusual angle instead of going for the choke. Cat reacted to Ronda on her back the way most people would and set herself mentally to defend against a choke and she had less than no time to adjust when Ronda rolled and locked her arm. Then, of course, people mock Cat for saying "I didn't know she was going to go for the arm" when Zigano had spent most of her mat time defending against people who prefer a choke. I point this out as an example of Rousey's grappling on the ground being non-standard.

 

[aerius]

Do you think she'll improve a lot more at that since she's so new to wmma. Or are great takedowns something that take years more of practice or like 'you either have it or you don't' so to speak?

With where Dern is at right now, give her 6 months with a high school wrestling coach and you'll see significant improvements in her takedowns. She's literally such a newbie that she doesn't even know the 1st day fundamentals like how to grip your hands or the proper starting stance for shooting a takedown.

 

[Rizz]

Do you think she'll improve a lot more at that since she's so new to wmma. Or are great takedowns something that take years more of practice or like 'you either have it or you don't' so to speak?

I am going to be honest. I have no clue. Everyone learns at different rates. Who would think Joanna who had been a striker her whole life would instantly have the greatest takedown defense / sub defense in the history of WMMA. For years people thought her weakness would be a wrestler or grappler and it turned out faster strikers were her real weakness.

 

[Askafan]

Totally agree with 'in with the new' my friend. I really enjoy your posts. How do you think they'd stack up if that's their next one - Jandiroba vs. Dern.

I used to entertain all the usual boxing prejudices against cagefighting - tattooed oafs rolling about in a cage - so I'm the last person to pass an opinion. I've always thought that if Dern took the sport seriously then the sky was the limit for her. Would just like to see them scrap further down the line.

For guys like me who don't really know what they're watching this was interesting stuff. I did notice how Mackenzie lifted her foot into position, also they make the point that Randa's resistance was impressive.

 

[Mittens]

Pre-fight I saw many here picking Markos and had no a clue why.

Her consistent alternating win/loss record. Statistics.

 

[GBJohn]

What if it started on the ground like a pure grappling match? How can I better understand better RR's phenomenal judo. I'm not an RR hater or a Dern lover. I'm past that type of fanboyism. Everyone seems in agreement so far. But how does RR just wrestle her to the ground and then win. Wouldn't Dern just mess her up once it's on the ground. I understand how RR was. Also wondering if she was only great in her time frame when wmma participants really weren't well trained. Dern started at age 3. She burned out when she was first switching to mma. She's looking damn great now.

I’m certainly not a grappling expert, as my zero classes in martial arts have failed to teach me any more than I’ve learned from watching MMA, so I really don’t have an educated opinion on a pure grappling match between Dern and Rousey. If forced to place a bet, I guess I would put my money on Rousey due to her size/strength advantage. Even in pure grappling, I have to believe there’s also an advantage in being the one who controls when and how things go to the mat. This would definitely be an exhibition I’d like to see.
If Rousey wouldn’t be interested in such a match, what about Kayla Harrison? Dern would be at an even greater strength disadvantage, against an Olympic gold medalist, as opposed to bronze, but does Harrison’s judo lend itself to submissions as well as Rousey’s?

 

[Eater of Souls]

I’m certainly not a grappling expert, as my zero classes in martial arts have failed to teach me any more than I’ve learned from watching MMA, so I really don’t have an educated opinion on a pure grappling match between Dern and Rousey. If forced to place a bet, I guess I would put my money on Rousey due to her size/strength advantage. Even in pure grappling, I have to believe there’s also an advantage in being the one who controls when and how things go to the mat. This would definitely be an exhibition I’d like to see.
If Rousey wouldn’t be interested in such a match, what about Kayla Harrison? Dern would be at an even greater strength disadvantage, against an Olympic gold medalist, as opposed to bronze, but does Harrison’s judo lend itself to submissions as well as Rousey’s?

Harrison's ground grappling is not Ronda level. Takedowns sure as shit are. But Rousey spent far more time than many judoka working on ne-waza (ground techniques).