Official Women's Division Discussion #26

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PolarBearPaulVarelans said:
The point is that outside the top 4 (or less), one would also struggle to mention fighters that weren't "bad" in some way at 125 or 105.

115 is the only female division at present with any kind of depth.
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That is debatable, and depends on what your standards are for not being "bad in some way". If I want to be critical, I can go down the list at 115 and find glaring holes in everyone's game with the possible exception of Zhang, and that's only because she's relatively untested.

I'd agree that 115 has the best skill level and likely depth as well. But consider the following. If Valentina weren't at 125, the top 10 of the division would be almost as competitive and well matched against each other as 115, albeit at a lower skill level.
 
aerius said:
That is debatable, and depends on what your standards are for not being "bad in some way". If I want to be critical, I can go down the list at 115 and find glaring holes in everyone's game with the possible exception of Zhang, and that's only because she's relatively untested.
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Sure, but 115 is head and shoulders above every other division.

With regards to 125, consider that a reject from 135 pounds who lost 4 in a row, including to Bethe Correia, Jessica Eye, is arguably the #2 fighter in the UFC. And it's not like Eye has improved substantially either, whether in terms of her observable skills or the results themselves. (Being badly hurt by and winning a split over a Faria, a complete 50/50 over Chookagian, coming in way overweight over Araujo and only winning after Araujo gassed badly in round 2, etc.)

Things are better if one includes Bellator's 125 division, with at least 3 girls who might be top 5 in the UFC (MacFarlane, Velasquez, and the vastly improved Lara), but that's still not a lot more than about 4 good/decent fighters.

Part of that is that various promising fighters ended up being duds.

Andrea Lee is an enormous underachiever who can't take advantage of her prodigious physical talents. Barber can't improve basic things and is slow as molasses. Pudilova is all of the above.

Mazo has decent potential, and maybe Calvillo and Grasso turn things around, but for now? I think even 135 is only moderately worse than 125.

And that's only because of Bellator's 125 division. Comparing UFC's 125 to their 135, it's debatable which is better overall if we don't count Grasso and Calvillo yet.
 
125 has a big group of okay fighters, but really struggles for any good ones. Outside of Valentina there's probably not a huge difference between number one in the world and number twenty (I'd include all the Bellator girls in that too).
 
The fighter that often doesn't get a fair shake at 125 lbs but she is still doing well for a older
fighter with more fights is Invicta Flyweight champion Vanessa Porto since she still has a few
good days left and a reputable record (22-8) despite her being more known in Brazil but is
one of the Invicta veterans with 11 fights there if my math is right.
 
msm1981 said:
The fighter that often doesn't get a fair shake at 125 lbs but she is still doing well for a older
fighter with more fights is Invicta Flyweight champion Vanessa Porto since she still has a few
good days left and a reputable record (22-8) despite her being more known in Brazil but is
one of the Invicta veterans with 11 fights there if my math is right.
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I totally agree. I seriously think she would be top 5 in the UFC 125 and top 2 in Bellator. I am surprised the UFC still have not signed her. I doubt Bellator will ever attempt to sign her like they avoided Jennifer Maia when she was thought to be the best 125er. Remember during that time period the UFC had not really opened 125 just yet.
 
Rizz said:
I totally agree. I seriously think she would be top 5 in the UFC 125 and top 2 in Bellator. I am surprised the UFC still have not signed her. I doubt Bellator will ever attempt to sign her like they avoided Jennifer Maia when she was thought to be the best 125er. Remember during that time period the UFC had not really opened 125 just yet.
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Don't you get tired of spewing absolute nonsense about Bellator and their fighters? This is right on the heels of you claiming that 8-5 fighter Jason King was nothing more than a lamb to slaughter against a 1-1 fighter who is almost 40.

Vanessa Porto would be a major underdog against MacFarlane, Julianna Velasquez, Alejandra Lara, AND the newly signed Liz Carmouche.

For a supposed WMMA fan, I would bet good money that you've never seen much of Velasquez or Lara, and can't tell me what their strengths and weaknesses as fighters are.
 
Why did it take Mackenzie Dern so long to lose weight & get in better shape since
before her last fight every time out she looked like she had a higher body fat percentage
and couldn't make championship weight but after she had her Daughter Moa she came
back considerably skinnier and made championship weight.
 
msm1981 said:
Why did it take Mackenzie Dern so long to lose weight & get in better shape since
before her last fight every time out she looked like she had a higher body fat percentage
and couldn't make championship weight but after she had her Daughter Moa she came
back considerably skinnier and made championship weight.
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Some chicks pack on the pounds during pregnancy and have a hard time losing the weight after. Some bodies go into overdrive and actually lose weight after pregnancy, end up thinner than they were before pregnancy.
 
aerius said:
That is debatable, and depends on what your standards are for not being "bad in some way". If I want to be critical, I can go down the list at 115 and find glaring holes in everyone's game with the possible exception of Zhang, and that's only because she's relatively untested.

I'd agree that 115 has the best skill level and likely depth as well. But consider the following. If Valentina weren't at 125, the top 10 of the division would be almost as competitive and well matched against each other as 115, albeit at a lower skill level.
Click to expand...

I think the main difference is: 115 could have any one of several different champions a year from now. This cannot be said of the other divisions. If I told you I was a time-traveler and a year from now Zhang won't be the champ, your imagination would kind of kick in (JJ, Rose, Andrade, a rejuvenated Gadelha?) But, if I said a year from now Nunes (or Shevchenko) wouldn't be champion, (first) you probably wouldn't believe me...and/or (second) you wouldn't be able to guess who the new champ would be. I think this clearly makes 115 the deepest division (that's just a fact).

Thought experiment...Now imagine the UFC took the Top 10 atom weights in the world and it's eight smallest straw weights cut down to atom weight and I asked you who would be the champion a year from now. I think you'd get a lot of different guesses. I think this also shows that atom weight is (potentially) pretty deep (This is my opinion).

Jarl
 
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JarlSkuld said:
I think the main difference is: 115 could have any one of several different champions a year from now. This cannot be said of the other divisions. If I told you I was a time-traveler and a year from now Zhang won't be the champ, your imagination would kind of kick in (JJ, Rose, Andrade, a rejuvenated Gadelha?) But, if I said a year from now Nunes (or Shevchenko) wouldn't be champion, (first) you probably wouldn't believe me...and/or (second) you wouldn't be able to guess who the new champ would be. I think this clearly makes 115 the deepest division (that's just a fact).

Though experiment...Now imagine the UFC took the Top 10 atom weights in the world and it's eight smallest straw weights cut down to atom weight and I asked you who would be the champion a year from now. I think you'd get a lot of different guesses. I think this also shows that atom weight is (potentially) pretty deep (This is my opinion).

Jarl
Click to expand...
Very interesting way to think about division depth. I like it. I also agree with your overall point.
 
msm1981 said:
Why did it take Mackenzie Dern so long to lose weight & get in better shape since
before her last fight every time out she looked like she had a higher body fat percentage
and couldn't make championship weight but after she had her Daughter Moa she came
back considerably skinnier and made championship weight.
Click to expand...
I believe I read that she was working with a nutritionist at the UFCPI. People tend to joke about it, but I think some fighters get better advice on nutrition and strength and conditioning there than they’ve ever had in their careers.
 
Not that I want to give attention to Bloody Elbows, but this is one of their better shows:
 
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