Official Judo Thread

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pretty sure this fella saved my skull last night, and ukemi saved everything else. over-rotated by 60 degrees or so on a frontside spin, momentum sucked my board across parallel, heel edge dug in, took an 8-10 foot backfall onto my shoulders ala Fedor/Randleman. lil concussed but otherwise unscathed.

yay Judo!
 
Brutal man. I have a couple of training partners who said similar things.
 
Remember when you could do this? Pepperidge Farm remembers...



I guess these are ok, too. Whatevs :)

 
I find this theoretical somehow.
Pretty much 80% of randoris you will have in the country where I train (Germany) are all about getting grips and getting the ippon.

The sort of advice you just gave applies when your partners are in the same mindset and let you and eachother try stuff but it just does not happen IRL.

The whole don't fight grips and learn to recognise movement stuff will just get you thrown over and over where I have trained. I know because I used to be that guy but it's time to impose my game. Enough Mr. Miyagi stuff.


I have to say that I identify so much with this. There are some things that are just set in stone in judo that one would not just mindlessly accept in other grappling sports/situations in general. Grips and otherwise.

I remember way back when I was only a few years in, one coach insisting I accept/go collar and sleeve, elbow down, center hip action for my uchi matas even in randori, when I had never seen him pull it off himself. It wasn’t until I said fuck it and took a high grip when available, raised my elbow and pushed the head down instead of the insane hulkamaniac lifting action taught by everyone and their dog that i started to get proper center uchi matas on decent people. And it wasn’t until i stepped off to the side i started getting uchi matas with the elbow down from the classic grip.
 
I have to say that I identify so much with this. There are some things that are just set in stone in judo that one would not just mindlessly accept in other grappling sports/situations in general. Grips and otherwise.

I remember way back when I was only a few years in, one coach insisting I accept/go collar and sleeve, elbow down, center hip action for my uchi matas even in randori, when I had never seen him pull it off himself. It wasn’t until I said fuck it and took a high grip when available, raised my elbow and pushed the head down instead of the insane hulkamaniac lifting action taught by everyone and their dog that i started to get proper center uchi matas on decent people. And it wasn’t until i stepped off to the side i started getting uchi matas with the elbow down from the classic grip.

I would say someone who can do sleeve/lapel uchimata down the middle consistently is a high level black belt. Maybe nidan/sandan. Not only do all the elements of uchimata need to be correct, they need to have fine control of uke and movement just to get the opportunity to pull off the classic tsuri komi pull. Why bother you say? Well, if you experience someone with a good pull, it feels impossible to avoid even if you see it coming.
 
It’s just that through my years of watching high level judo I cannot really recall any uchi mata players actually do a middle uchi mata with the classic lapel/sleeve pull, much less consistently. I have seen many good side uchi matas with sleeve/lapel and elbow down pushing through (not pulling) from kenka yotsu, but not a proper classical one with pulling action through the middle.
 
Sure, against other high level players it's still hard, but against commoners? You betcha they can.

Why bother then? Well, up the middle is still physically more efficient. Take it if it's there. You can randori longer and throw people harder too. Or you might find that you won't throw a heavyweight any other way.
 
That’s the thing, though. With a high grip and the elbow up I can throw both average joes and relatively good judoka.

The classic lapel sleeve pull is to me an unfortunate pedagogical tool preserved through a reverence for tradition that blocks rather than aid development. It makes me feel dirty to think so, but I believe in evidence over everything else, and I just cannot find any for the classical approach.

Which is why this is my favorite Karate Kid film.

 
That’s the thing, though. With a high grip and the elbow up I can throw both average joes and relatively good judoka.

The classic lapel sleeve pull is to me an unfortunate pedagogical tool preserved through a reverence for tradition that blocks rather than aid development. It makes me feel dirty to think so, but I believe in evidence over everything else, and I just cannot find any for the classical approach.

Which is why this is my favorite Karate Kid film.



I have judo'd against good level judoka who absolutely ruin me using classical grip.

That being said, these judoka ruin me even more using unconventional grips.

I would not go as far as you to say that the focus of classical is detrimental in general, just that in my case I need to face the evidence that it works poorly.
 
Oh, I am not saying the classical grip is bad at all. It just isn’t positionally advantageous. What I am saying is bad is the hulk pull, fit in, throw progression. It just doesn’t happen unless the other guy is shit.

I am also saying that grip fighting and positioning is a fundamental part of grappling, and that a 50/50 lapel sleeve grip is far less universally applicable and pedagogical than some people would have it.
 
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....*my* classical grip is positionally advantageous...when i get the lapel grip, you're done controlling distance, and if i get your elbow too you're officially done controlling your movement. every step or rotation you make after that point is something i'm anticipating in my head.

for a long time i was content with being able to just grab someone and huck them through the air. suplex and double legs and te guruma are a dead lift, and i lift a lot. the extent of the skill there was "RAWR I BIG YOU FLY GO BOOM"

but now....what i really think gets people hooked are the ashiwaza. i'll throw uchimata in that category even though it's in that grey area, but especially harai tsurikomiashi, deashibarai...holy fuck when i started timing those and hitting those consistently, then took that same timing appreciation into the BIG throws...oh my god have you ever osotogaried someone who just tried to jump backwards to avoid your kouchigari?

honestly you guys...i've gotten super weeby in randori with the citrus belts. i've been doing sumi otoshi and uki otoshi. it works. it's insane. it's like having superpowers...
 
Yes, beginners can fall for many things, be it judo, wrestling or bjj. But I do not grapple to embarrass newbies. I grapple to achieve true demonstrable skill in overcoming good grapplers.

As for ashiwaza. You won’t find me denying the gospel. You’ll find me in the choir chanting.
 
That’s the thing, though. With a high grip and the elbow up I can throw both average joes and relatively good judoka.

The classic lapel sleeve pull is to me an unfortunate pedagogical tool preserved through a reverence for tradition that blocks rather than aid development. It makes me feel dirty to think so, but I believe in evidence over everything else, and I just cannot find any for the classical approach.

The high grip and elbow up lack the ability to pull uke forwards prior to entry. Which means not only is your attack range limited, you have less momentum to potentially use. Basically you can do uchimata that way if someone's size is within your strength range, or a dumbo walks into it for you. And that's fine for most situations.

The Japanese however not only tend to have squatter bodies, they emphasize throwing larger people. So the basic form is going to be the classic grip, get under, sweep far leg with lots of hip.

As a lanky type I also prefer pulling down instead, but it does run into difficulty when you get someone much larger.
 
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Dunno if I agree with the idea that a lifting forward pull becomes more viable when people get bigger and heavier. I still see the elbow up when there is a size discrepancy, but not the classic pull.

No matter. I’ve beaten this dead horse enough. Have a good weekend and happy judo.
 
elbow-up uchimata is because the big boys are already tipping down. there's nothing left to lift so you're punching them back towards the ground and doing the tippy ken ken uchimata.

god-tier uchimata you lift them onto their toes and your arm for a split second, then fwoosh.

most competitive uchimata is the tippy uchimata. shit works.

but fwoosh is the goal.
 
Kosen judo with...leglocks? He's not great at them but he's definitely trying for straight ankle locks and heel hooks


 
elbow-up uchimata is like a vibrator. it'll get the job done, especially if you're compensating for mediocre or haven't taken the time to learn the proper technique. it obviously works. for some people, that's all they need.

but like, you're just rammin' it in there because you haven't learned the finesse. it'll help in a pinch, it'll put a bit more pizzazz on things, but you don't need it. you have all of the requisite equipment, you just need practice. it's worth putting in the work and getting to god tier, because then you get to walk around and be the guy/gal who can make someone feel that way whenever you like.

they'll never forget it. even if it's just the one time. it'll be the standard. it'll remind them of what's possible with proper devotion, focus, and effort.
 
Lol. You’re basically dissing every world champion uchi mata player with that description. If even Inoue couldn’t, or at the very least didn’t, do elbow down (not even when randoriing with common club schlubs) then maybe, just maybe, elbow up is the correct way for the middle uchi mata.

Show me just one single uchi mata player who uses the elbow down pulling middle uchi mata. Just one. As I said initially, it is only in judo I can find this kind of denial of facts among the real combat sports. It is quite frankly disturbing.

Edit: Here is a compilation of elite japanese judoka middle uchi matas. Notice how every single one is elbow up. Every. Single. One. You also see it used with weight discrepancy.



Clearly they are compensating for their lack of technique.
 
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