I'll send you a PM.my big toe said:Can you please expand on your Medical background,
"High" LDL is a relative quantification. It has been shown that having high LDL with respect to HDL is sometimes positively correlated with homocysteine, which in turn, is sometimes correlated to atherosclerotic plaque. While I do think having relatively high LDL panels is reason for further inquiry, I do not consider it the end-all test to determine cardiac health. I have even less respect for total cholesterol levels as an indicator.and are you saying that high LDL levels are not a accurate marker for increased risk of cardiac disease?
You basically summed it with that post. The AHA is infamous for making blanket statements and classifications which hold little or no merit for implementation into a person's diet. I could likely point out a hundred falsehoods that the AHA has held, despite resounding evidence that refutes those claims. Just for a brief example, I'll break-down the list you just posted.Also, what about the dietary guildlines from the American Heart Association do you disagree with? Thanks.
American Heart Association Eating Plan for Healthy Americans is based on these new dietary guidelines, released in October 2000:
Eat a variety of fruits and vegetables. Choose 5 or more servings per day.
Eat a variety of grain products, including whole grains. Choose 6 or more servings per day.
Include fat-free and low-fat milk products, fish, legumes (beans), skinless poultry and lean meats.
Choose fats and oils with 2 grams or less saturated fat per tablespoon, such as liquid and tub margarines, canola oil and olive oil.
Balance the number of calories you eat with the number you use each day. (To find that number, multiply the number of pounds you weigh now by 15 calories. This represents the average number of calories used in one day if you're moderately active. If you get very little exercise, multiply your weight by 13 instead of 15. Less-active people burn fewer calories.)
Maintain a level of physical activity that keeps you fit and matches the number of calories you eat. Walk or do other activities for at least 30 minutes on most days. To lose weight, do enough activity to use up more calories than you eat every day.
Limit your intake of foods high in calories or low in nutrition, including foods like soft drinks and candy that have a lot of sugars.
Limit foods high in saturated fat, trans fat and/or cholesterol, such as full-fat milk products, fatty meats, tropical oils, partially hydrogenated vegetable oils and egg yolks. Instead choose foods low in saturated fat, trans fat and cholesterol from the first four points above.
Eat less than 6 grams of salt (sodium chloride) per day (2,400 milligrams of sodium).
Have no more than one alcoholic drink per day if you're a woman and no more than two if you're a man. "One drink" means it has no more than 1/2 ounce of pure alcohol. Examples of one drink are 12 oz. of beer, 4 oz. of wine, 1-1/2 oz. of 80-proof spirits or 1 oz. of 100-proof spirits.
Switch to butter, you'll be happier and healthier. The movement towards margarines has been illfounded since they were created. They're SUPER proccessed, disease causeing crap. Consider butter, olive oil or coconut oil as a substitute.BoxingFanNoMore said:Tub margarines are generally laced with trans fatty acids?
WTF, you blame the AHA for making blanket statements and classifications with hold little merit or no merit. What does generally laced with mean?
There are plenty of no trans fat margarines, and plenty made from unhydrogenated oils with very little trans fat.
If you have a problem with over generalization, I would recommend not saying things like "generally laced".
BoxingFanNoMore said:Tub margarines are generally laced with trans fatty acids?
WTF, you blame the AHA for making blanket statements and classifications with hold little merit or no merit. What does generally laced with mean?
There are plenty of no trans fat margarines, and plenty made from unhydrogenated oils with very little trans fat.
If you have a problem with over generalization, I would recommend not saying things like "generally laced".
Terumo said:At first, I thought your post was not worthy of reply, but then I thought there might be others that were confused by the statement. And by "others," I mean those that know how to inquire about something tactfully and intelligently.
"Generally laced," which admittedly is a poor choice of words, means that margarines, unless some measure has been taken to remove the trans fatty acids, are heavily laden with trans fats. Yes, now that people are aware of the dangers of trans fats (which, five years ago, the general public was not), many manufacturers have taken a measure to remove trans fats. However, the very idea behind the advent of margarine is that the fatty acids would be denatured, such that they gave up some hydrogen bonds. This, in turn, changes the conformation of the lipid, making it a trans molecule. Keep in mind that since trans fats are not regulated by the FDA, food manufacturers can actually get away with false-labeling of trans fat content. Have you ever looked at the ingredients lists on foods that are labeled as "Trans Fat Free?" Many times you will see "partially hydrogenated oil." There is no possible way that a product can contain partially hydrogenated oil and be free of trans fatty acids. Partially hydrogenated oils are trans fatty acids. In other words, don't be too convinced by product labeling.
As a personal aside, let me say this... If you have a problem with my statements, let it be known, but if you want to be a hostile keyboard warrior, I would suggest you find something worthwhile to bitch about. In this post, you have not succeeded. How many words were in my post? Close to 1000? I apologize [sarcasm] if I made an unclear choice of two of those words. Your attempt at trolling has been futile.
BoxingFanNoMore said:First you say tub margarines, then you refer to margarines. There is a big difference between tub margarines and stick margarines..
Second, maybe you should read this.
Food Labeling; Trans Fatty Acids in Nutrition Labeling
Terumo said:Do we really need to debate this? Just don't use margarine. There is no place for it in a healthy diet, anyhow. I don't remember the last time I've used or even purchased margarine or butter.
Yes, I grouped margarine and tub margarine together. Why? Because, in truth, there is not a significantly discernable difference in trans fat content between the two. I read the FDA link. However, trans fats are not under regulation by the FDA. Free trans fatty acids are listed, but those comprise just a small fraction of trans fats that occur in a food product. Any fatty acid that is converted to a trans conformation via denaturation is not considered free--only those fats that are in trans conformation prior to manufacturer are listed. Aside from that, you have to remember that false labeling is not exactly a new concept in nutrition. When I see "trans fat free," and the first fat-containing ingredient is partially hydrogenated soybean oil, I know that the manufacturer is lying. It happens, and it happens a lot.
I cannot figure why you are trolling me. Maybe you aren't trolling--maybe you are just obsessed with margarine. Do you work for Parkay? If you have any more O/T arguments you wish to make, please take them up via PM. The purpose of this thread was to provide information of nutritional roles in cardiac health, not to discuss the evils/wonders of margarine.
101.9(c)(2)(ii) to require the quantitative declaration of trans
fat in the Nutrition Facts panel. This new paragraph requires the
listing of trans fat on a separate line under the statement for
saturated fat. As is the case for all subcomponents of total fat, it is
to be indented and separated by a hairline, with the amount expressed
as grams per serving to the nearest 0.5 g increment below 5 g and to
the nearest gram increment above 5 g. If the serving contains less than
0.5 g, the content must be expressed as 0, except when the statement
``Not a significant source of trans fat'' is used.
There is no possible way that a product can contain partially hydrogenated oil and be free of trans fatty acids
there is not a significantly discernable difference in trans fat content between the two.
I never said you recommended margarine. I just don't know why, by your initial post, that is the one thing that concerned you--a slight ambiguity that didn't clearly discern the problems with margarine. Are you just trying to discredit my entire post by inclusion of an innane detail? It won't work.BoxingFanNoMore said:Please tell me where I recommended margarine. I never once said I use margarine or butter, because in fact I usually dont use either while cooking at home.
I did read the link, and FYI, it is not the first time I've seen that report. However, I know for a fact that the FDA does not regulate trans fats aside from free trans fatty acids. I clearly said that those were listed. However, trans fats that occur from denaturation, processing, pH anomalies, and other events in the manufacturing procedure are not listed--these can simply be listed as unsaturates. Even if these were listed, food products are not exactly being truthful in their labeling of fats, as I mentioned earlier.You obviously didnt read the link, the FDA clearly defines it's standard...
No it doesn't. Now, take into consideration that there may be some variability in the amount of trans fat that is contained in different forms of margarine. The 600% difference you claim (which is the highest I've ever heard) still only refers to free trans fatty acid content, which actually constitutes a very small portion of the actual trans fat content. Yes, it is statistically significant; however, in terms of actual dietary practice, it is not. No discernable difference, in terms of dietary intake for a normal person, that is, unless the manufacturer has found some means of isolating free trans fat as the only trans fat occuring in the product.But stick margarine, which usually has more partially hyrdogenated oil doesnt have a significantly discernable difference?
Because it isn't. I'm not an expert in emulsification chemistry, but I do know that managing lipids into a more rigid form (stick margarine) requires significantly greater addition of emulsifiers and, in this case, fractionalized lipids. This means more hydrogenated oils, which means more free trans fatty acids. We are not debating this point--I totally agree that stick margarine would require more addition of free trans fatty acids; however, I will reiterate: Free trans fats are not the only trans fats that occur in margarine, or most other foods for that matter.Its funny you mentioned parkay, because I cant figure out why if there is no difference between stick and tub margarine, and according to you the FDA doesnt regulate trans fat. Why do they not call there stick margarine trans fat free.
I never said you recommended margarine. I just don't know why, by your initial post, that is the one thing that concerned you--a slight ambiguity that didn't clearly discern the problems with margarine. Are you just trying to discredit my entire post by inclusion of an innane detail? It won't work.
all unsaturated fatty acids that contain one or more isolated (i.e., nonconjugated) double bonds in a trans configuration.
trans fatty acids, regardless of origin, that meet the above definition are
to be included in the label declaration of trans fat.
Terumo said:BFNM, you are, and have been arguing some issues that I do not claim. First of all, I will say that you once again got me on simple semantics. I didn't mean to imply that the FDA is the only organization that tests fat profiles. I meant that they ones through whom assays have to go through in the U.S. I thought that was clear when writing, but I suppose it was not...
I am making claims based purely upon common sense. It is statistically, mathematically impossible for a substance to have four ingredients, the first of which is partially hydrogenated oil, and yet have less than 1% trans fat by weight. Do I need a reference a published study to argue this point? Okay, here is your source:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...102-5570052-7958504?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
I know what needs to be formally referenced and what does not. What "evidence" do you want? If you can do math and read a food label, the claim that I am making is adamantly clear.
Peanut butter? If it contains hydrogenated oil, will contain trans fatty acids. I personally don't care about this, as I only use "natural" peanut butter that contains ground peanuts, salt, and nothing else. Then again, we aren't talking about peanut butter.
I'm going to bed. We can continue to debate to futility tomorrow.
Basestocks prepared in the laboratory when blended with liquid soybean oil will yield spread oils meeting FDA labeling requirements for zero TFA, that is, <0.5 g of TFA/serving.
Terumo said:When I stopped by Harris Teeter earlier today, I looked at a box of Land O' Lakes stick margarine and a tub of Land O' Lakes tub margarine. Sure enough, the stick margarine did not list trans fatty acids in the nutrition info. The tub margarine, however, listed 0g. However, I look at the ingredients list, and there it was, the number one ingredient--partially hydrogenated soybean oil. There is no possible way that a product containing PHO as the first ingredient can contain <0.5g of trans fatty acids. No possible way.
Madmick said:BFN, I don't understand why you continue to be confused, man.
The FDA only regulates free trans fatty acids; I'm guessing that definition is for that variation and, as it says, the regulated fatty acids are those that "that meet the above definition."
Terumo works in this field, I'm pretty sure he understands the chemistry behind it. You and I are the kind of people who intelligently read the labels, but he's the dude that writes them.
only those fats that are in trans conformation prior to manufacturer are listed
101.9(g)(2), provide that a sample for nutrient analysis must consist of a composite of 12 subsamples, taken one from each of 12 randomly chosen shipping cases. FDA will then analyze the nutrient content of this composite test sample.