Nutritional Cardiology 101

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by Terumo, Oct 26, 2005.

  1. Terumo

    Terumo Orange Belt

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    This is my very first post as a thread-starter. Hope you guys garner something useful out of it:

    Terumo
     
  2. my big toe

    my big toe Yellow Belt

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    Can you please expand on your Medical background, and are you saying that high LDL levels are not a accurate marker for increased risk of cardiac disease? Also, what about the dietary guildlines from the American Heart Association do you disagree with? Thanks.

    American Heart Association Eating Plan for Healthy Americans is based on these new dietary guidelines, released in October 2000:

    Eat a variety of fruits and vegetables. Choose 5 or more servings per day.

    Eat a variety of grain products, including whole grains. Choose 6 or more servings per day.

    Include fat-free and low-fat milk products, fish, legumes (beans), skinless poultry and lean meats.

    Choose fats and oils with 2 grams or less saturated fat per tablespoon, such as liquid and tub margarines, canola oil and olive oil.

    Balance the number of calories you eat with the number you use each day. (To find that number, multiply the number of pounds you weigh now by 15 calories. This represents the average number of calories used in one day if you're moderately active. If you get very little exercise, multiply your weight by 13 instead of 15. Less-active people burn fewer calories.)

    Maintain a level of physical activity that keeps you fit and matches the number of calories you eat. Walk or do other activities for at least 30 minutes on most days. To lose weight, do enough activity to use up more calories than you eat every day.

    Limit your intake of foods high in calories or low in nutrition, including foods like soft drinks and candy that have a lot of sugars.

    Limit foods high in saturated fat, trans fat and/or cholesterol, such as full-fat milk products, fatty meats, tropical oils, partially hydrogenated vegetable oils and egg yolks. Instead choose foods low in saturated fat, trans fat and cholesterol from the first four points above.

    Eat less than 6 grams of salt (sodium chloride) per day (2,400 milligrams of sodium).

    Have no more than one alcoholic drink per day if you're a woman and no more than two if you're a man. "One drink" means it has no more than 1/2 ounce of pure alcohol. Examples of one drink are 12 oz. of beer, 4 oz. of wine, 1-1/2 oz. of 80-proof spirits or 1 oz. of 100-proof spirits.
     
  3. Terumo

    Terumo Orange Belt

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    I'll send you a PM.

    "High" LDL is a relative quantification. It has been shown that having high LDL with respect to HDL is sometimes positively correlated with homocysteine, which in turn, is sometimes correlated to atherosclerotic plaque. While I do think having relatively high LDL panels is reason for further inquiry, I do not consider it the end-all test to determine cardiac health. I have even less respect for total cholesterol levels as an indicator.

    You basically summed it with that post. The AHA is infamous for making blanket statements and classifications which hold little or no merit for implementation into a person's diet. I could likely point out a hundred falsehoods that the AHA has held, despite resounding evidence that refutes those claims. Just for a brief example, I'll break-down the list you just posted.

    Liquid and tub margarines? Those are lower in saturated fat than butter, but they are generally laced with trans fatty acids, an unsaturate that has been aggressively implicated in cardiac disease. Egg yolks are classified in the same category as partially hydrogenated oils? That is a terrible comparison. Egg yolks are actually a wonderful source of many healthful fatty acids; whereas, hydrogenated oils are essentially dietarily worthless.

    "Limit your intake of foods high in calories or low in nutrition." First of all, this is not even an intelligible sentence. Food that is "low in nutrition?" Low in vitamins--maybe. Low in phytonutrients--sure. However, this statement tells a person nothing. Aside from that, foods that are high in calories are not inherently bad. Based upon mass, essential fatty acid products are of the highest caloric density of any food.

    "Maintain a level of physical activity that keeps you fit and matches the number of calories you eat. Walk or do other activities for at least 30 minutes on most days. To lose weight, do enough activity to use up more calories than you eat every day." More arbitrary statements. What level of physical activity "keeps you fit?"

    They recommend grain products and only say, "include whole grains." Some grain products are the most unhealthful things that we can be consuming. The general public does not understand this.

    Summing all of these statements, my problem with the AHA is their over-generalized, over-simplified approach to nutrition and health. They have made many endorsements of which I do not approve (low-fat/high-sugar foods, soy products, anything that is low in cholesterol, etc...). I just do not find their approach professional, effective in educating the public, or even well researched. Most of my colleagues share these sentiments.
     
  4. Girljock

    Girljock Guest

    Interesting. thanks
     
  5. BoxingFanNoMore

    BoxingFanNoMore Blue Belt

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    Tub margarines are generally laced with trans fatty acids?

    WTF, you blame the AHA for making blanket statements and classifications with hold little merit or no merit. What does generally laced with mean?

    There are plenty of no trans fat margarines, and plenty made from unhydrogenated oils with very little trans fat.

    If you have a problem with over generalization, I would recommend not saying things like "generally laced".
     
  6. my big toe

    my big toe Yellow Belt

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    Thanks Terumo, I've always considerd the AHA guidelines as kind of a conservative broad guideline, definitely not the definitive guide. I agree on the margerine, I use the Smart Balance spread that has no trans fats. Also, I believe you are correct with regards to total general LDL numbers, as there is more research pointing to LDL constituients such as the small dense LDL(a) and possibly LDL(b) being better indicators of risk, http://www.cardiosource.com/rapidnewssummaries/index.asp?EID=13&DoW=Mon&SumID=83. However, I believe a program that lowers overall LDL will most likely decrease the LDL(a), since I don't think there is anyway just to target the "bad" LDL.

    That's interesting about the garlic and cayenne pepper, I think I remember reading that, I'm going to check my source at home. I've heard different opinions on the Red Yeast Rice, I think my Dr. has a patient that has been using it, so I'm going to ask him about their results when I see him. Policosinal is another one that was being hyped, but I've heard that additional studies have to shown and effectiveness. Anyway, good thread. Thanks.
     
  7. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    Switch to butter, you'll be happier and healthier. The movement towards margarines has been illfounded since they were created. They're SUPER proccessed, disease causeing crap. Consider butter, olive oil or coconut oil as a substitute.
     
  8. Terumo

    Terumo Orange Belt

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    At first, I thought your post was not worthy of reply, but then I thought there might be others that were confused by the statement. And by "others," I mean those that know how to inquire about something tactfully and intelligently.

    "Generally laced," which admittedly is a poor choice of words, means that margarines, unless some measure has been taken to remove the trans fatty acids, are heavily laden with trans fats. Yes, now that people are aware of the dangers of trans fats (which, five years ago, the general public was not), many manufacturers have taken a measure to remove trans fats. However, the very idea behind the advent of margarine is that the fatty acids would be denatured, such that they gave up some hydrogen bonds. This, in turn, changes the conformation of the lipid, making it a trans molecule. Keep in mind that since trans fats are not regulated by the FDA, food manufacturers can actually get away with false-labeling of trans fat content. Have you ever looked at the ingredients lists on foods that are labeled as "Trans Fat Free?" Many times you will see "partially hydrogenated oil." There is no possible way that a product can contain partially hydrogenated oil and be free of trans fatty acids. Partially hydrogenated oils are trans fatty acids. In other words, don't be too convinced by product labeling.

    As a personal aside, let me say this... If you have a problem with my statements, let it be known, but if you want to be a hostile keyboard warrior, I would suggest you find something worthwhile to bitch about. In this post, you have not succeeded. How many words were in my post? Close to 1000? I apologize [sarcasm] if I made an unclear choice of two of those words. Your attempt at trolling has been futile.
     
  9. BoxingFanNoMore

    BoxingFanNoMore Blue Belt

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    First you say tub margarines, then you refer to margarines. There is a big difference between tub margarines and stick margarines..

    Second, maybe you should read this.

    Food Labeling; Trans Fatty Acids in Nutrition Labeling
     
  10. Terumo

    Terumo Orange Belt

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    Do we really need to debate this? Just don't use margarine. There is no place for it in a healthy diet, anyhow. I don't remember the last time I've used or even purchased margarine or butter.

    Yes, I grouped margarine and tub margarine together. Why? Because, in truth, there is not a significantly discernable difference in trans fat content between the two. I read the FDA link. However, trans fats are not under regulation by the FDA. Free trans fatty acids are listed, but those comprise just a small fraction of trans fats that occur in a food product. Any fatty acid that is converted to a trans conformation via denaturation is not considered free--only those fats that are in trans conformation prior to manufacturer are listed. Aside from that, you have to remember that false labeling is not exactly a new concept in nutrition. When I see "trans fat free," and the first fat-containing ingredient is partially hydrogenated soybean oil, I know that the manufacturer is lying. It happens, and it happens a lot.

    I cannot figure why you are trolling me. Maybe you aren't trolling--maybe you are just obsessed with margarine. Do you work for Parkay? If you have any more O/T arguments you wish to make, please take them up via PM. The purpose of this thread was to provide information of nutritional roles in cardiac health, not to discuss the evils/wonders of margarine.
     
  11. BoxingFanNoMore

    BoxingFanNoMore Blue Belt

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    Please tell me where I recommended margarine. I never once said I use margarine or butter, because in fact I usually dont use either while cooking at home.

    You obviously didnt read the link, the FDA clearly defines it's standard as

    It clearly states if the serving contains less than 0.5g, the content must be expressed as 0.

    That is straight from the FDA regulations, which passed in 2003. It will be completely required, effective January 1, 2006.

    I dont get it you say

    Then say there is

    But stick margarine, which usually has more partially hyrdogenated oil doesnt have a significantly discernable difference? Thats kind of counter intuitive.

    The USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference, sure lists a significantly discernalbe difference, namely 600%!

    Its funny you mentioned parkay, because I cant figure out why if there is no difference between stick and tub margarine, and according to you the FDA doesnt regulate trans fat. Why do they not call there stick margarine trans fat free.

    [​IMG]

    Strange.
     
  12. Terumo

    Terumo Orange Belt

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    I never said you recommended margarine. I just don't know why, by your initial post, that is the one thing that concerned you--a slight ambiguity that didn't clearly discern the problems with margarine. Are you just trying to discredit my entire post by inclusion of an innane detail? It won't work.

    I did read the link, and FYI, it is not the first time I've seen that report. However, I know for a fact that the FDA does not regulate trans fats aside from free trans fatty acids. I clearly said that those were listed. However, trans fats that occur from denaturation, processing, pH anomalies, and other events in the manufacturing procedure are not listed--these can simply be listed as unsaturates. Even if these were listed, food products are not exactly being truthful in their labeling of fats, as I mentioned earlier.

    No it doesn't. Now, take into consideration that there may be some variability in the amount of trans fat that is contained in different forms of margarine. The 600% difference you claim (which is the highest I've ever heard) still only refers to free trans fatty acid content, which actually constitutes a very small portion of the actual trans fat content. Yes, it is statistically significant; however, in terms of actual dietary practice, it is not. No discernable difference, in terms of dietary intake for a normal person, that is, unless the manufacturer has found some means of isolating free trans fat as the only trans fat occuring in the product.

    Because it isn't. I'm not an expert in emulsification chemistry, but I do know that managing lipids into a more rigid form (stick margarine) requires significantly greater addition of emulsifiers and, in this case, fractionalized lipids. This means more hydrogenated oils, which means more free trans fatty acids. We are not debating this point--I totally agree that stick margarine would require more addition of free trans fatty acids; however, I will reiterate: Free trans fats are not the only trans fats that occur in margarine, or most other foods for that matter.

    So, to rephrase, the FDA regulates trans fats, but they do so in a completely erroneous and useless manner.
     
  13. BoxingFanNoMore

    BoxingFanNoMore Blue Belt

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    Because I am concerned with accurate information. You may be ok with using terms like "generally laced", but that doesnt really help anybody.

    You said the FDA doesnt regulate trans fat. But yet they have regulations on labeling trans fat.

    Then you go on to claim manufacutrers false advertise, yet it clearly states in the FDA regulations that anything under 0.5 g/per serving must be presented as 0.

    I dont see how that is false advertising, they are following FDA regulations. But for some reason you believe the FDA doesnt regulate trans fat.

    Then you say stick margarine and tub margarine contain the same amount of trans fat, and that 600% is the highest number you have read. Well, I dont work at a Food Nutritional Testing Laboratory, so I have to get my information from other sources. Like the USDA national nutrient database.

    USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference

    If I look at two entries of margarine for 100 gram servings

    Margarine, vegetable oil spread, 60% fat, stick Fatty acids, total trans = 13.587g

    Margarine, vegetable oil spread, 60% fat, tub/bottle Fatty acids, total trans = 0.183g

    I would call a 7425% increase a significantly discernalbe difference.

    Maybe you would say that is just "generally laced" with a little more.

    Maybe, you can tell us where to get the right information then? Are there other governing bodies or health organizations with more accurate information and dont suggest the AOAC method 996.06 to determine fat concentrations? Or use a different definition for trans fat then the FDA?
     
  14. Terumo

    Terumo Orange Belt

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acids#Trans_fatty_acids

    Read the section on free fatty acids. I have said, repeatedly, and you can confirm this with the FDA, that the measurement of trans fat in a product is a measurement of free fatty acids only. I do not dispute that there are more free trans fats in stick margarine.

    When I stopped by Harris Teeter earlier today, I looked at a box of Land O' Lakes stick margarine and a tub of Land O' Lakes tub margarine. Sure enough, the stick margarine did not list trans fatty acids in the nutrition info. The tub margarine, however, listed 0g. However, I look at the ingredients list, and there it was, the number one ingredient--partially hydrogenated soybean oil. There is no possible way that a product containing PHO as the first ingredient can contain <0.5g of trans fatty acids. No possible way.

    You ask about my information sources. I have been reading FDA reports and dockets for the past ten years of my life. I understand, to some extent, the way their policies take effect. I don't inherently have a problem with the way fatty acid profiles are analyzed. Personally, I think that UV-vis spectroscopy would be a much better method of fat composition analysis than that currently mandated by AOAC 996.06, but I don't think that is the problem here. I have simply found some holes in their analyses--many, many instances where incorrect labeling occurs. Protein bars, low-fat foods, low-sugar foods, and apparently margarine... I have seen contradictory Nutrition Info when compared to Ingredients listings so many times. As for an independent assay, I don't have figures to quote because, as you alluded, there is only one agency that does this stuff. If I had more time, I'd do a spec analysis myself. I've got access to the equipment. Maybe a project for this winter?

    Anyhow, I'm almost to an agree-to-disagree state here (the entire concept of the post has been lost), but I do want to see if there is something I am missing. And for the record, if you are trying to anger me by mocking my choice of the words "generally laced," I assure you, that will not work either. My skin is thicker than an elephant's. You are just making yourself look like a typical Sherdog troll.
     
  15. BoxingFanNoMore

    BoxingFanNoMore Blue Belt

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    The FDA defines trans fatty acids as

    and requires

    And I certainly did not allude to that there is only one agency that does this stuff. There are many. The canadian food inspection agency, for example.

    However, they have the same definition for trans fat and recommend Method 996.06 for determing trans fat values. So, I would assume they have similar values on their labels although they do have different labeling standards.

    But it seems pretty clear you are just making claims, without offering any data or evidence to prove otherwise.

    So what are we supposed to do about other foods besides margarine, if there is no accurate source to find information on trans fat values? For example, peanut butter? Is this "generally laced" with trans fat to, if it say's 0 g trans fat per serving?
     
  16. Terumo

    Terumo Orange Belt

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    BFNM, you are, and have been arguing some issues that I do not claim. First of all, I will say that you once again got me on simple semantics. I didn't mean to imply that the FDA is the only organization that tests fat profiles. I meant that they ones through whom assays have to go through in the U.S. I thought that was clear when writing, but I suppose it was not...

    I am making claims based purely upon common sense. It is statistically, mathematically impossible for a substance to have four ingredients, the first of which is partially hydrogenated oil, and yet have less than 1% trans fat by weight. Do I need a reference a published study to argue this point? Okay, here is your source:

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...102-5570052-7958504?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

    I know what needs to be formally referenced and what does not. What "evidence" do you want? If you can do math and read a food label, the claim that I am making is adamantly clear.

    Peanut butter? If it contains hydrogenated oil, will contain trans fatty acids. I personally don't care about this, as I only use "natural" peanut butter that contains ground peanuts, salt, and nothing else. Then again, we aren't talking about peanut butter.

    I'm going to bed. We can continue to debate to futility tomorrow.
     
  17. Madmick

    Madmick Freedom!!! Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    BFN, I don't understand why you continue to be confused, man.

    The FDA only regulates free trans fatty acids; I'm guessing that definition is for that variation and, as it says, the regulated fatty acids are those that "that meet the above definition."

    Terumo works in this field, I'm pretty sure he understands the chemistry behind it. You and I are the kind of people who intelligently read the labels, but he's the dude that writes them.
     
  18. BoxingFanNoMore

    BoxingFanNoMore Blue Belt

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    Why would you need it to be less than 1% trans fat.

    Serving size is 1 tbsp = 14 g (roughly for margarine, soybean oil)

    0.5g/14g * 100 = 3.6%

    Seems like you missed some common sense there

    Oh, and you might want to try reading this.

    Preparation of Spread Oils Meeting U.S. Food and Drug Administration Labeling Requirements for Trans Fatty Acids via Pressure-Controlled Hydrogenation

    Partially hydrogenated soybean oil that is 17% TFA's.

    Which quite easily leads to this conclusion from that study.

     
  19. BoxingFanNoMore

    BoxingFanNoMore Blue Belt

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    Is this the one?

    [​IMG]


    Because on here it lists Liqud Soybean Oil, Water, Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, and then Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil.

    Maybe, its not listed in descending order of importance on their website, but for their stick kind partially hydrogenated soybean oil is listed ahead of water.

    Which would make sense to me, but then again I am at a first grade math level.
     
  20. BoxingFanNoMore

    BoxingFanNoMore Blue Belt

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    Madmick look where he said

    Now if you look at the FDA Regulations which I gave a link to, it clearly states

    Huh, how do only trans fats prior to manufacture get listed, the FDA takes samples right out of the shipping cases. Unless Parkay is in the habit of shipping raw ingridients to Walmart, I dont see how only the trans fats prior to manufacture get listed.

    but then according to him the FDA doesnt even regulate trans fat labeling.

    But hey, if there is more accurate Nutrional Data than this

    Margarine, vegetable oil spread, 60% fat, tub/bottle

    I would like to know it. If he says the FDA only test free trans fatty acids, fine who does test non free trans fatty acids?

    Obviously, he must have seen some sort of data somewhere if he can make the argument that stick margarine has the same total trans fat than tub margarine.

    I would assume one just doesnt wake up with that kind of information. So where is it, thats all I am asking for, if the USDA's information is incomplete, where is the complete information.

    Is that to much to ask for?
     

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