Crime Nusrat Jahan Rafi: Burned to death for reporting sexual harassment

I think the environment in which people can excuse themselves for committing such actions, has quite a lot to do with Islam, though.

Obviously there were probably no acid attacks in Muhammad's time, nor would he have encouraged such a thing as suicide bombings (because he was actually a competent general who recognized the value of a live soldier compared to a dead one). But the concepts that he created, and which have since shaped into various forms, have stirred up environments, in which, due to "honor culture" and the necessity to pursue "jihad", people are committing such things as acid attacks and suicide bombings.

They are perversions of Islam's original ideas, but to some degree we have to accept that there is some responsibility to bear for that, no different from how Christianity has some responsibility to bear for what people did in its name in colonialist societies.

I think it would do Islam a lot of good if they were as capable of being introspective about what Islam has turned into, as Christians eventually were capable of being. They can't really keep excusing the practises that occur in Muslim states, as just being some separate thing that has nothing to do with their religion or traditions.
In some other cases I might agree but unfortunately burning women alive has a deep history on the South Asian continent that predates Islam by centuries.

But I do agree that some introspection is called for. Both sexual harassment and burning women alive are clearly against Islamic values so why is it that the mob rage is directed at the victim and not the perpetrators of these absolutely haram actions? I can understand giving the man accused the benefit of the doubt initially but that's different from spiraling into a bloodthirsty rage against the women who accused him. Its a misogynistic bully mentality that only considers "tradition" when it is convenient and completely ignores the religious edicts and customs that call for protecting and honoring women.
 
In some other cases I might agree but unfortunately burning women alive has a deep history on the South Asian continent that predates Islam by centuries.

But I do agree that some introspection is called for. Both sexual harassment and burning women alive are clearly against Islamic values so why is it that the mob rage is directed at the victim and not the perpetrators of these absolutely haram actions? I can understand giving the man accused the benefit of the doubt initially but that's different from spiraling into a bloodthirsty rage against the women who accused him. Its a misogynistic bully mentality that only considers "tradition" when it is convenient and completely ignores the religious edicts and customs that call for protecting and honoring women.

Indeed, but the problems that are "inherited", are problems that the subsequent structures, imposed in the place of the old, are meant to solve. And Islam was originally established as a means of solving many of such problems, by giving women a greater value (as ridiculous as that may sound from a modern point of view).

If Christianity had co-existed with, for example, Vikings committing human sacrifice, I think non-Christians probably would not have looked too fondly on the ability of Christians to impose civilized culture on its citizens. It would have been, inevitably, associated with the barbarism of its adoptees (and to a degree, it was, Crusades and such in many ways represented Germanicism rather than Christian ideals).

Islam has to be capable of putting a check to this sort of behaviour, even inherited behaviour, because it is the moral guiding principle that dominates these regions.

I believe that only a thorough re-evaluation of what Islam is meant to stand for, and what it is in actuality standing for in these places, will eventually put a stop to this sort of a "bully" mentality. When the religious mob points the finger at the murderer, instead of the victim, the murderers will find it much more difficult to commit these sorts of crimes.

That is not to say that they won't still happen, but they will happen at a decreased frequency.
 
Here's an account (from Romans) on what sort of dudes (Germanic peoples) Christianity had to work with:

"When they go into battle, it is a disgrace for the chief to be surpassed in valour, a disgrace for his followers not to equal the valour of the chief. And it is an infamy and a reproach for life to have survived the chief, and returned from the field. To defend, to protect him, to ascribe one's own brave deeds to his renown, is the height of loyalty. The chief fights for victory; his vassals fight for their chief. If their native state sinks into the sloth of prolonged peace and repose, many of its noble youths voluntarily seek those tribes which are waging some war, both because inaction is odious to their race, and because they win renown more readily in the midst of peril, and cannot maintain a numerous following except by violence and war.

Indeed, men look to the liberality of their chief for their war-horse and their bloodstained and victorious lance. Feasts and entertainments, which, though inelegant, are plentifully furnished, are their only pay. The means of this bounty come from war and rapine. Nor are they as easily persuaded to plough the earth and to wait for the year's produce as to challenge an enemy and earn the honor of wounds. Nay, they actually think it tame and stupid to acquire by the sweat of toil what they might win by their blood.

Whenever they are not fighting, they pass much of their time in the chase, and still more in idleness, giving themselves up to sleep and to feasting, the bravest and the most warlike doing nothing, and surrendering the management of the household, of the home, and of the land, to the women, the old men, and all the weakest members of the family. They themselves lie buried in sloth, a strange combination in their nature that the same men should be so fond of idleness, so averse to peace."


We are talking about a race of men whose entire way of life revolved around raiding other people's belongings, perpetual war (mostly amongst themselves), doing no labour whatsoever of their own, gaining honor by fighting and being dishonoured by labour. Not exactly cream of the crop.

When we speak of Europeans, particularly Germans and such, being civilized, and having a high work ethic, it was hardly always this way. They were relatively barbaric compared to the Middle Eastern or Asian populations. I mean, from the outset, you would not have thought that this was a group of people that was ever capable of building anything that stood the test of time. So, to have civilized these people to the point where they are deemed the best, at anything really, is a huge feat, which Christianity can acclaim credit for (alongside a number of other factors, Christianity consisting as only one among the many, not even a primary factor as far as I'm concerned).


That is why I find it hard to buy these excuses that some Middle Eastern or Asian traditions are too difficult for Islam to stamp out. I just don't think there's enough willingness to get the job done.
 
Last edited:
No, there are no Islamic scriptures that prescribe burning. In fact, Mohammed specifically says that burning people is strictly forbidden, as it is a punishment reserved to God (eternal damnation).

You're like one of the people who think FGM is Islamic.

Found these interesting verses starting at chapter 4. Loosely translated into English of course.

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

(As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

We will make the rejectors of Our revelations suffer in hell fire. As soon as the fire destroys their skins, We will give them new skins so that they may suffer more of the torment. God is Majestic and All-wise.

Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allah is Ever Most Powerful, AllWise.

Surely those who disbelieve in Our signs -- We shall certainly roast them at a Fire; as often as their skins are wholly burned, We shall give them in exchange other skins, that they may taste the chastisement. Surely God is All-mighty, All-wise.

(There seems to be a whole lot of talk about roasting disbelievers)
To say that there are are no Islamic scriptures that prescribe burning is disingenuous at best.
 
Indeed, but the problems that are "inherited", are problems that the subsequent structures, imposed in the place of the old, are meant to solve. And Islam was originally established as a means of solving many of such problems, by giving women a greater value (as ridiculous as that may sound from a modern point of view).

If Christianity had co-existed with, for example, Vikings committing human sacrifice, I think non-Christians probably would not have looked too fondly on the ability of Christians to impose civilized culture on its citizens. It would have been, inevitably, associated with the barbarism of its adoptees (and to a degree, it was, Crusades and such in many ways represented Germanicism rather than Christian ideals).

Islam has to be capable of putting a check to this sort of behaviour, even inherited behaviour, because it is the moral guiding principle that dominates these regions.

I believe that only a thorough re-evaluation of what Islam is meant to stand for, and what it is in actuality standing for in these places, will eventually put a stop to this sort of a "bully" mentality. When the religious mob points the finger at the murderer, instead of the victim, the murderers will find it much more difficult to commit these sorts of crimes.

That is not to say that they won't still happen, but they will happen at a decreased frequency.
That is fair. These practices are not Islamic but that should not be merely an excuse to defend the religion but as a reason for Muslims themselves to be outraged at such cases. As @Trotsky pointed out killing by fire is prohibited in Islam and yet in this case and with the infamous execution of the Jordanian pilot we see this barbaric method used by Muslims despite that fact. This barbarism is what should offend the Muslim mob, not a mere accusation of harassment by a young girl.

In fact accusations of harassment by Muslim women should be taken especially serious by Muslims given the importance of their honor and whatnot. Instead some Muslim men seem incensed that Muslim women dare ask for the rights entitled to them by their own religion and customs.
 
Last edited:
Found these interesting verses starting at chapter 4. Loosely translated into English of course.

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

(As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

We will make the rejectors of Our revelations suffer in hell fire. As soon as the fire destroys their skins, We will give them new skins so that they may suffer more of the torment. God is Majestic and All-wise.

Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allah is Ever Most Powerful, AllWise.

Surely those who disbelieve in Our signs -- We shall certainly roast them at a Fire; as often as their skins are wholly burned, We shall give them in exchange other skins, that they may taste the chastisement. Surely God is All-mighty, All-wise.

(There seems to be a whole lot of talk about roasting disbelievers)
To say that there are are no Islamic scriptures that prescribe burning is disingenuous at best.

Those are all different translations of the same verse.

@Kafir-kun
 
Religion is a cancer.
So stupid.. You think the tribal behavior comes from religion, but it's human nature. You think religion is the cause for humans bad behavior, but it's an attempt to curb it. Without it, or an honor society like Japan, you'll get the same crap.. Probably worse.
 
Just another day in Dar ul Islam. If feminists and other leftists really cared about womens right and well being they would be turning every weapon they have in the direction of the Religion of Misogyny.

And this "pox on all their houses"/"religion is cancer" thing is a pussy dodge by left wing enabling turds. Every large group obviously has it's nutters and bad actors, but there is a big difference between a religion or ideology that requires its people to love others and one that requires them to dominate or slaughter them.
 
So stupid.. You think the tribal behavior comes from religion, but it's human nature. You think religion is the cause for humans bad behavior, but it's an attempt to curb it. Without it, or an honor society like Japan, you'll get the same crap.. Probably worse.

Religion enables greater acts of evil, than tribalism/paganism, but then again all acts of "progression" have such an effect. When you unite 1 million people under a cause, they are obviously more capable of committing both good and evil, than separate groups of about 10,000 people. But that does not mean that those smaller groups were operating at any level of sanity. They were just incapable of committing greater atrocities.

It's humans doing human things that fuck things up, at the end of the day. If you read about pre-Islamic societies, there was some pretty fucked up things going on, that Islam corrected. Obviously, as ever, some babies were probably thrown out with the bathwater, and good things were lost as well, same goes for Christianity and the Germanic pagan societies.

The question is how much worth religions of this sort have in a modern-day context. Not much, as far as I'm concerned, if they cannot even prevent women from being burned alive, stoned, etc. A truly religious man needs to be capable of looking at that and feeling shame about what is being done at the hands of other "faithful".
 
Last edited:
There are probably still "those" guys in the West who think the man she accused is innocent and that the accusations were false.
joe-biden-2-thumbs-up.jpg
 
I am not saying @Trotsky is necessarily wrong but I think the roots go deeper than he suggests in that first post. For instance, you point to the fall of the Ottoman Empire as a key turning point and I agree but note that both Salafism and Wahhabism emerged before the fall of the Ottomans(first Saudi state existed between 1744-1818).

The deeper root is the clash between modernity and classical Islam. Classical Islam was highly pluralistic in practice as it wasn't enforced by a powerful, centralized state with a hegemonic religious vision but rather a patchwork of courts and jurists with a variety of different views based on their madhab and even personal approaches. You can have Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali, and Shaifi courts all giving wildly different rulings on more or less similar cases in the same city and nobody saw anything wrong with this(in fact some people gamed the system by going to multiple different schools of jurisprudence depending on the issue they wanted resolved so that they would get favorable rulings). Why should a ruling on divorce between two Maliki Maghrebis be the same as one between two Hanafi Turks? Even within a madhab you might find different rulings on the same kind of case as the jurist is ideally sensitive to the unique customs of different populations.

This was so because these courts were rooted in their local contexts primarily and not reliant on the state; they subsisted off of court fees and proceeds from charitable foundations they ran. Projecting modern terms onto the past has many limitations and pitfalls but in a sense they weren't actors of the state but of civil society. They attended to many of society's needs like dispute arbitration(primarily related to family issues like marriage, divorce, and inheritance), education, and charity more or less independent of the state. In fact one of their key roles was mediating the social contract between rulers and ruled, something they could do because of their moral authority and independent economic foundation. Its not that simple, some were more aristocratic and chummy with the rulers and others more populist and close to the people. But as a class that was a key function.

All that changed when the Fire Nation attacked, and by that I mean the onset of modernity. Now the state was a powerful, centralized force with a hegemonic vision for society; no longer was it acceptable for the law to be so chaotic and pluralistic, it now had to be standardized and of course enforced by the state. In practice this meant that the state took on many of the functions that the ulema once performed making them irrelevant. And often they were co-opted, becoming agents of the state and towing the state line, thus eroding their moral authority and their ability to be mediators between rulers and ruled.

This lead to the emergence of Salafism which is paradoxically more and less plural than the classical tradition; it called for a direct interpretation based on the Qur'an and hadith without mediation through the scholarly class which means that theoretically every Salafi can have his own individualized interpretation. But unlike the classical tradition these various interpretations are often mutually exclusive. So when, for example, the Wahhabism was being spread by the Saudi-Wahhab alliance, it wasn't spread as one other acceptable vision of Islam alongside others but as the only acceptable vision of Islam. Thus the modern state allows small groups of visionaries to impose their vision on the whole of society, something that was not the norm in premodern Islam. There were exceptions like the Safavid conversion of Iran but even then the limited capacity of the premodern state means a massive disparity in efficacy compared to any such attempts by a modern one.

So because the modern state does not tolerate the classical pluralism of premodern Islam, each group wants to race to capture the reins of the state to impose their own vision of Islam on everyone else and this is not unique to the fundamentalists. Secular dictatorships also do this to try to push a very apolitical, sanitized form of Islam on their populations as evidenced by the religious establishment in Egypt being critical of the Islamists. Everyone, from Salafists to Islamic feminists and modernists to secularists, has their own vision of Islam that they feel is the one true Islam that must be accepted by everyone else, a stark contrast to the classical tradition where more often than not rulings were seen as working conclusions that were fitted to their specific contexts and expected to exist alongside alternative but more or less equally valid conclusions.

This a great post. Dropping a lot of useful knowledge to be address anyone who wants to have an overly simplistic view of the issues with Islam.

Br I would ask why did the rise of nation state need to coexist with such a totalitarian form of Islam? Was it really only a choice between a form of non state based legal diversity (that I don’t think could function well with modern commerce) and what we see today?

I was posit that something else was at play than simply the rise of the nation state, but the rise in conjunction with other force that made the nation state a perverted form of itself.

The derper crowed will focus much more on something being inherently “wrong” with Islam. And from a textual read, sure it’s better cannon fodder for violent nationalist manipulation perspective than some of the other “books” out there, but that’s only a tiny a part of the story.

My point is that without the political forces, Islam could have been co-opted into modern life without the need to revert to such an extremist and monolithic format.
 
This a great post. Dropping a lot of useful knowledge to be address anyone who wants to have an overly simplistic view of the issues with Islam.

Br I would ask why did the rise of nation state need to coexist with such a totalitarian form of Islam? Was it really only a choice between a form of non state based legal diversity (that I don’t think could function well with modern commerce) and what we see today?
Well I wouldn't write off that form of the sharia so quickly, many Muslim countries have either highly corrupt court systems or failed states so I think there is potential for the sharia in the form of private arbitration in such cases. Think of it as like a free market approach to dispute arbitration rooted in a legal tradition that, in theory at least, should have widespread moral authority among Muslim populations. In fact I imagine this is in some ways already a reality in remote, rural parts of the Muslim world though instead of a sharia court its more likely some mutually respected elder that arbitrates.

And in the wake of the rise of neoliberalism you find that in many Muslim countries that as the bloated public sector of the state contracts, the private organizations of the Islamists have come to fulfill many of the roles of the state in its absence like providing services like healthcare and education and microcredit not entirely unlike how things were long ago. Or consider perhaps that Muslims could consider how to modernize the medieval institution of waqf where a certain property is alienated to support a charitable cause; So I wonder if its possible to work towards a modern Muslim society where Islam as a social force expresses itself primarily through civil society and the private sector as opposed to leveraging the coercive potential of the state.

But nonetheless point taken, we can't turn back the clock to some idealized premodern age that in reality is likely not as rosy as it may seem in hindsight.
I was posit that something else was at play than simply the rise of the nation state, but the rise in conjunction with other force that made the nation state a perverted form of itself.

The derper crowed will focus much more on something being inherently “wrong” with Islam. And from a textual read, sure it’s better cannon fodder for violent nationalist manipulation perspective than some of the other “books” out there, but that’s only a tiny a part of the story.
My point is that without the political forces, Islam could have been co-opted into modern life without the need to revert to such an extremist and monolithic format.
Yeah sure that's theoretically possible and you could say there were attempts to do so in the 19th century by Muslims and of course that's where Trotsky's point about colonialism comes in. Any such attempts were usually done to resist European imperial encroachment but unfortunately unlike Japan the Muslim world has the misfortune of being within striking distance of the colonizers and so they did not have as much time and isolation to modernize on their own.

To be fair Egypt was modernized before European colonialism by Mehmed Ali and his system was pretty autocratic and experienced similar pitfalls as other regions even before being subsumed into the European colonial system.

One approach I have thought of would be for some hypothetical Islamic constitution to recognize general rights that are supposed to be protected under the sharia instead of the specific rulings. The goals of the sharia as articulated by medieval scholars like the great Imam Ghazali are more or less as follows; protection of the right to life, property, religion, intellect, and family(or lineage, hence adultery and fornication being a crime).

Only the last one is unfamiliar to Westerners and I imagine some might see the value in it regardless given the complaints some Americans have over the nature of the family court system. Also some scholars have argued for the addition of a sixth in the form of honor but others argue that is implicitly protected by the other five in one way or another and I would find enshrining that one to be more problematic.
 
Okay why the fuck they burned her alive? political move? are those students on someone's payroll? I have so many questions. What a bunch of fucking animals, the lot of them.
It's a warning, fucking scum
 
In some other cases I might agree but unfortunately burning women alive has a deep history on the South Asian continent that predates Islam by centuries.

But I do agree that some introspection is called for. Both sexual harassment and burning women alive are clearly against Islamic values so why is it that the mob rage is directed at the victim and not the perpetrators of these absolutely haram actions? I can understand giving the man accused the benefit of the doubt initially but that's different from spiraling into a bloodthirsty rage against the women who accused him. Its a misogynistic bully mentality that only considers "tradition" when it is convenient and completely ignores the religious edicts and customs that call for protecting and honoring women.

In this particular case, part of the reason could just be that since he is the headmaster their loyalty is with him and not with her. A simple case of defending who you consider a friend , ally or respected figure.

These perps may believe he is innocent because the word of an Islamic academic means a hell of a lot more than the word of a lowly female , and by "lowly" I mean a person without any influence. That part of the world treats its lower class citizens atrociously. Religious figures have a lot of power.

Ofcourse the other reasons are that certain societies prefer to punish the victim rather than punish the perp, because the perp is usually a senior figure and punishing him is perceived as hurting the community. In the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, there is strong resistance towards seeking justice from the outside world against one of their own. Women/children who are abused by senior figures are expected to keep quiet and not make waves . Because the community is insular ; it puts the reputation , well-being and image of the community above justice.

See below article for what I mean. Hit the stop reload page icon in the address bar before the page fully reloads, because if you wait for the subscription window to appear it won't let you read the article. lol

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/...eir-own-for-reporting-child-sexual-abuse.html

The first shock came when Mordechai Jungreis learned that his mentally disabled teenage son was being molested in a Jewish ritual bathhouse in Brooklyn. The second came after Mr. Jungreis complained, and the man accused of the abuse was arrested.

Old friends started walking stonily past him and his family on the streets of Williamsburg. Their landlord kicked them out of their apartment. Anonymous messages filled their answering machine, cursing Mr. Jungreis for turning in a fellow Jew. And, he said, the mother of a child in a wheelchair confronted Mr. Jungreis’s mother-in-law, saying the same man had molested her son, and she “did not report this crime, so why did your son-in-law have to?”

By cooperating with the police, and speaking out about his son’s abuse, Mr. Jungreis, 38, found himself at the painful forefront of an issue roiling his insular Hasidic community. There have been glimmers of change as a small number of ultra-Orthodox Jews, taking on longstanding religious and cultural norms, have begun to report child sexual abuse accusations against members of their own communities. But those who come forward often encounter intense intimidation from their neighbors and from rabbinical authorities, aimed at pressuring them to drop their cases.


Abuse victims and their families have been expelled from religious schools and synagogues, shunned by fellow ultra-Orthodox Jews and targeted for harassment intended to destroy their businesses. Some victims’ families have been offered money, ostensibly to help pay for therapy for the victims, but also to stop pursuing charges, victims and victims’ advocates said.

From the New Yorker
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/10/outcast-3

---

Obviously I am not comparing the above abuse in the Hasidic community to the crime in the O.P. , just providing a closer to home example of my point on how some communities attack the victim instead of the perp. When the Catholic church sexual abuse scandals broke in the 90s and early 00s, many conservative Catholics didn't side with the victims, they rather the whole thing be kept on the down low, because they feared the damage to the reputation of the Catholic church, nevermind seeking justice for the victim. It is not uncommon in certain regions of the Muslim world to force a women to marry her rapist or keep her quiet, because the elders are always thinking about what is good for the community . Just primitive tribal thinking. These shitstains on humanity need to be droned !
 
I watched a short vice doc on gang rapes in Bangladesh and it was not good... It's certainly a religious and cultural thing and totally inexcusable. A religion that is incompatible modernity...
 
Back
Top