Nurmagomedov vs Gracie

They're nothing alike.

The Gracies invented something, they pioneered something. But they did so at the advent of the sport so it's not very impressive because, they simply knew one thing when everyone else knew nothing.

The Nurmagomedovs aren't really coaches they're recruiters. Chechnya has had the strongest wrestling tradition in the world for decades. And sambo is a sort of spinoff art of that. It was a gold mine waiting to be tapped. Most of the Chechen mixed martial artists that now populate the sport were never personally trained by Abdulmanap, and even if they were, not primarily. And he certainly didn't create any technique, much less martial art, that hadn't been seen before. There are many elite gyms in Chechnya that these high level fighters come from, many of them camp at different gyms when they come to the US as well, what Khabib has pioneered with Eagles MMA is more of a pipeline than a technique. Which isn't less valuable, it's just again, very different.
 
They're nothing alike.

The Gracies invented something, they pioneered something. But they did so at the advent of the sport so it's not very impressive because, they simply knew one thing when everyone else knew nothing.

The Nurmagomedovs aren't really coaches they're recruiters. Chechnya has had the strongest wrestling tradition in the world for decades. And sambo is a sort of spinoff art of that. It was a gold mine waiting to be tapped. Most of the Chechen mixed martial artists that now populate the sport were never personally trained by Abdulmanap, and even if they were, not primarily. And he certainly didn't create any technique, much less martial art, that hadn't been seen before. There are many elite gyms in Chechnya that these high level fighters come from, many of them camp at different gyms when they come to the US as well, what Khabib has pioneered with Eagles MMA is more of a pipeline than a technique. Which isn't less valuable, it's just again, very different.

Russia wrestling federation support a lot Grappling, a submission style. It brings together techniques from freestyle/greco, bjj, sambo and catch Wrestling. There are a lot of young wrestlers with cross training in this style. Pankration is another strong wrestling style in Russia with a pro league and amateur tournaments with hundreds of wrestlers. Evloev, Khabib and many others have incorporated these techniques.
 
This is such a lie. Who are these people? No one can ever actually name them or they name some bogus Wing Tsun dude who would have done about as well as Fred Ettish.

Until people learned grappling well enough to have takedown defense, and learned BJJ well enough to not get submitted, the Gracies were going to beat just about anyone, hand-picked or not.

Sure out of 7 billion people there were people who would beat Royce on a fluke but not consistently. It's not like these names were known and avoided, that is the ridiculous "common knowledge" that the martial arts world tried to hold onto during the early UFCs "they're avoiding Emin Boztepe, he would kill Gracie" LOL

And any bigger names in boxing or football, for example, were making far more money than the UFC could possibly offer to compensate for the risk of being in the Octagon.
The Gracies prevented Oleg Taktarov, and Tank Abbott from entering the early UFCs. As well as Marco Ruas and other Luta Livre fighters. When Kimo tried to learn BJJ b4 UFC 3 he got black balled by every gym except Joe Morera. And we saw how close he came to smashing Royce into the ground with only a few weeks of instruction.

The early UFCs were straight Gracie infomercials to sell GJJ.
 
Taktarov did so well against Renzo, I can see why they stopped him.
He got ktfo by an upkick, he's always been chinny. And I hate to break it to you but Renzo has always been one of the best of the Gracies at cross training and being willing to take risks. He was the only one who had the balls to fight Sakuraba without bullshit rules and he's gone on record many times in disagreement with Royce and Rickson over BJJ supremacy. You picked the worst possible example in that family.
 
He got ktfo by an upkick, he's always been chinny. And I hate to break it to you but Renzo has always been one of the best of the Gracies at cross training and being willing to take risks. He was the only one who had the balls to fight Sakuraba without bullshit rules and he's gone on record many times in disagreement with Royce and Rickson over BJJ supremacy. You picked the worst possible example in that family.

No you picked the worst example by claiming they were ducking Taktarov lol

and Taktarov chinny, LOL, he was KOed twice in his career, took a dozen full knees from Severn and 1000 punches from Shamrock and didn't get KOed
 
The Gracies prevented Oleg Taktarov, and Tank Abbott from entering the early UFCs. As well as Marco Ruas and other Luta Livre fighters. When Kimo tried to learn BJJ b4 UFC 3 he got black balled by every gym except Joe Morera. And we saw how close he came to smashing Royce into the ground with only a few weeks of instruction.

The early UFCs were straight Gracie infomercials to sell GJJ.
The Kimo & Joe Moreira connection came after that infamous Puerto Rico incident:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-puerto-rico-incident.3544399/

About UFC 1 & Huas:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
 
You will not last in MMA if you have never practiced BJJ, ask justin Gaethje.

You can do fine in the UFC, if Sambo was you grappling art. (I say this as a lifelong jeeewww jiiiiittsuuuuu practitioner)
 
I don't agree. They removed headbutts on the ground cause guys like Coleman were too dominant with them. That helped the BJJ guys and took away a weapon wrestlers could easily use.

They removed headbutts, IMO, because it did look too violent for TV audiences and politicians, that said, I believe the wrestler with ground & pound and headbutts is largely, unbeatable.
 
You can do fine in the UFC, if Sambo was you grappling art. (I say this as a lifelong jeeewww jiiiiittsuuuuu practitioner)

What I meant is that you can do great in MMA without practicing Jiu Jitsu as long as no one puts you on your back for a prolonged period of time, then you are fucked. It will happen at some point.
 
Good reads. Impressive that Kimo learned enough BJJ just watching a few tapes and taking a couple of lessons to almost beat Royce. Dude should have got a haircut before he competed that ponytail saved Royce's bacon.
 
What I meant is that you can do great in MMA without practicing Jiu Jitsu as long as no one puts you on your back for a prolonged period of time, then you are fucked. It will happen at some point.

Can’t a sambo guy fight from guard? Maybe not like a BJJ guy, but Sambo has judo and BJJ has judo, so using guards and subs from bottom is not a “bjj jiu jitsu” thing but inherent to all arts with judo or samurai ju-jitsu as their parent art.
 
Last edited:
No you picked the worst example by claiming they were ducking Taktarov lol

and Taktarov chinny, LOL, he was KOed twice in his career, took a dozen full knees from Severn and 1000 punches from Shamrock and didn't get KOed

They ducked someone who could easily nullify their grappling and who could endure long enough to force the fight to the feet which isn't the message of GJJ, and their mystical guard pulling sub anyone from the ground propaganda. Oleg was a terrible striker but he was freaking RJJ compared to Royce and his little foot stomp offense. Chinny was an overstatement, but Oleg definitely had an overrated chin. Ken was his former training partner and they fought to a draw. Those punches had nothing on them. And Severn has to be the most pillow fisted fighter in UFC history watching him try and punch is really pathetic same with his knees. Great wrestler terrible striker. His fight with Tank turned into a hug fest after Tank gassed winging wild uncontrolled sloppy punches and decided to nap in his guard for the rest of the fight.

Both times he got hit clean by someone with legit knockout power he went to sleep.
 
Man there's alot of over-generalisations in this thread... First of all.. its not like all the BJJ gyms around the world learn the same 'curriculum' and secondly to assume one grappling style vs another grappling style would beat another without taking any nuance into consideration such as experience and other cross training is a bit premature.

What i will say is: whether it's judo, sambo, BJJ or wrestling, each of these grappling sports consider the different positions to be of different hierarchical value because of the rules they relate to in competition. For example wrestlers wouldn't practice guard because this would be a losing position, jiu jitsu guys don't necessarily focus on take downs and will often sit or pull guard because risk of submission. Judo guys ground game typically involve attacking from turtle as there's a time limit to submit someone on failed clean throw.

The grappling that the majority of professional mma fighters engage in is typically a no gi mma focused approach. Some may train traditional styles to get better at say sweeps from guard, takedowns, wall grappling, but in the end, most positional training would (SHOULD) be done with striking so they understand safe areas, for example while you can chill in bottom half in BJJ, it's likely you will be smashed in the face when strikes are allowed. That being said, guys like Maia use half guard to setup a sweep. He might take a few punches but in his prime he would pull half guard to reverse position and gain dominant position. I think it's safe to say that there are proven styles which have been generally successful in MMA, but i'm not entirely convinced this isn't more of a self for-filling prophecy, ie the more people who are successful at a muay thai, wrestling, bjj cross train, the more people attempt to train the same style -> the more people become successful at muay thai, wrestling, bjj.
 
Nurmagedofghdhshs for sure, gracies only won because no one had real skills back then.
 
They removed headbutts, IMO, because it did look too violent for TV audiences and politicians, that said, I believe the wrestler with ground & pound and headbutts is largely, unbeatable.
Yeah I just had to correct the guy that was saying that rules were changed to help wrestlers when most of the rule changes like only 3 5 minute rounds(instead of infinite until finish) and the removal of headbutts did the opposite.
 
They're nothing alike.

The Gracies invented something, they pioneered something. But they did so at the advent of the sport so it's not very impressive because, they simply knew one thing when everyone else knew nothing.

The Nurmagomedovs aren't really coaches they're recruiters. Chechnya has had the strongest wrestling tradition in the world for decades. And sambo is a sort of spinoff art of that. It was a gold mine waiting to be tapped. Most of the Chechen mixed martial artists that now populate the sport were never personally trained by Abdulmanap, and even if they were, not primarily. And he certainly didn't create any technique, much less martial art, that hadn't been seen before. There are many elite gyms in Chechnya that these high level fighters come from, many of them camp at different gyms when they come to the US as well, what Khabib has pioneered with Eagles MMA is more of a pipeline than a technique. Which isn't less valuable, it's just again, very different.

<Prem973>

Don't even know where to start.

I'll just say 90% of what you wrote is factually wrong.
 
Can’t a sambo guy fight from guard? Maybe not like a BJJ guy, but Sambo has judo and BJJ has judo, so using guards and subs from bottom is not a “bjj jiu jitsu” thing but inherent to all arts with judo or samurai ju-jitsu as their parent art.

Yes, and no. Sport sambo got pins, including if you got a submissions on so they would rather turtle. Combat Sambo don't have pins but the referee will stand you up in about 10 seconds if you're not close to a finish.
 
Yeah I just had to correct the guy that was saying that rules were changed to help wrestlers when most of the rule changes like only 3 5 minute rounds(instead of infinite until finish) and the removal of headbutts did the opposite.
The scoring, at least in the beginning, favored wrestlers. Take downs and lay and pray being rewarded as "Octogan control " then later Randy and wall and stall. But the rules can go either way, I'm inclined to say that they're what they are to suppress the morality police and their pearl clutching over violence in combat sports.

Now the scoring favors people with active grappling and striking, and doesn't reward the Matt Linland special of take down and pitty pat punch to avoid stand up.
 
Back
Top