NoGi Worlds 2018

[yetanother]

Whether you win by an inch or a mile, you still win. He won based on the rules. Deal with it.

Isn't it that way with loses?
I don't feel super victorious when winning by say an IBJJF ref decision.
It always feel super weird to me that people celebrate the closest most bullshit wins the hardest.

 

[dmwalking]

Isn't it that way with loses?
I don't feel super victorious when winning by say an IBJJF ref decision.
It always feel super weird to me that people celebrate the closest most bullshit wins the hardest.

Gordon wasn’t pleased with himself.

But I get when guys celebrate. I mean, you just fought your heart out. And you got that inch in a very close match. I can understand if it’s an uneventful match you might think it’s Bs. But winning by an advantage still means you gutted out a win with hard work. Not all victories have to be flawless.

 

[dmwalking]

jesus this was a travesty, is there a special beef between the 2? it looked like cyborg didnt give a fuck about the match and was trying to prove something, dont know what, but what he did was worst than what shaub did to him..

Yeah. There was some trash talk going on between the two on Instagram. I think Cyborg’s ego and temper got the best of him and turned him into his worst. Shameful.

 

[TheMood]

The IBJJF really needs to speed up the stalling penalties. It should not have taken 7 minutes for Gordon to finally get 2 points. Cybrog should've been disqualified at 5 minutes for stalling in my opinion.

Also the Miyaos never compete under the Unity name. They compete under Cicero Costha.

 

[yetanother]

Gordon wasn’t pleased with himself.

Haven't seen Gordon do that, Brazillians love to do that.
Ref mistakes and bad DQ's are among their most valuable wins.

 

[mataleaos]

The IBJJF really needs to speed up the stalling penalties. It should not have taken 7 minutes for Gordon to finally get 2 points. Cybrog should've been disqualified at 5 minutes for stalling in my opinion.

.

Yeah I thought the refs should've done more sooner and Cyborg's entire strategy confused me. The guy already subbed you and you are the underdog so what's the worst that can happen? You've got nothing to lose. If you lose no one will knock you for it. At least go out on your sword. It's so trippy because Cyborg has always been such a balls to the wall competitor and I have rarely seen him stall or not engage.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Yeah. There was some trash talk going on between the two on Instagram. I think Cyborg’s ego and temper got the best of him and turned him into his worst. Shameful.

well there actually an event where both can settle his beef, wont be mma, but CJJ will be perfect. And at this point, I think gordon is going to beat the living shit out of cyborg. He is the better grappler already.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Yeah I thought the refs should've done more sooner and Cyborg's entire strategy confused me. The guy already subbed you and you are the underdog so what's the worst that can happen? You've got nothing to lose. If you lose no one will knock you for it. At least go out on your sword. It's so trippy because Cyborg has always been such a balls to the wall competitor and I have rarely seen him stall or not engage.

i think a lot of this stems from dumb IBJJF rules that essentially allow the guard player to stall, while forcing the top player to engage. in other words, why does Cyborg have to be the one to engage Gordon's short range guard, while Gordon doesn't have to engage Cyborg standing and/or at a longer range? If there was a -1 penalty for guard pulling then this match would have looked completely different (I still think Gordon would have won btw)

 

[yetanother]

i think a lot of this stems from dumb IBJJF rules that essentially allow the guard player to stall, while forcing the top player to engage. in other words, why does Cyborg have to be the one to engage Gordon's short range guard, while Gordon doesn't have to engage Cyborg standing and/or at a longer range? If there was a -1 penalty for guard pulling then this match would have looked completely different (I still think Gordon would have won btw)

Unless you want the rule set be just about take downs which would be a different sport the top guy should forced to engage.
If you don't want to be on top why would should your takedown even score?
Gordon was butt scooting chasing him anyway, it's just the top guy is faster and will run away.

 

[mataleaos]

i think a lot of this stems from dumb IBJJF rules that essentially allow the guard player to stall, while forcing the top player to engage. in other words, why does Cyborg have to be the one to engage Gordon's short range guard, while Gordon doesn't have to engage Cyborg standing and/or at a longer range? If there was a -1 penalty for guard pulling then this match would have looked completely different (I still think Gordon would have won btw)

I am with the overall spirit of your post but I would say that if our goal is to get the match to the floor and submit our opponent, then if they have conceded top position then didn't they more or less give us what we wanted from the takedown anyways? Besides the 2 points of course or possibly trying to land in side control by clearing the legs during the takedown. But say you're Cyborg and in the big picture you just wanted the takedown on Gordon but he pulled guard before you could. You didn't get your 2 points but he's where you wanted him, so go ahead and try to pass right?

 

[Quebec Nick]

i think a lot of this stems from dumb IBJJF rules that essentially allow the guard player to stall, while forcing the top player to engage. in other words, why does Cyborg have to be the one to engage Gordon's short range guard, while Gordon doesn't have to engage Cyborg standing and/or at a longer range? If there was a -1 penalty for guard pulling then this match would have looked completely different (I still think Gordon would have won btw)

Gordon was engaging, He was the one going forward and getting grips. He was setting up attacks, Cyborg was just breaking grips and getting out of range.

 

[asian-glow]

What always strikes me is how calm gordon ryan is in any of his matches, no matter how high stakes. He is never freaking out.

 

[Quebec Nick]

I am with the overall spirit of your post but I would say that if our goal is to get the match to the floor and submit our opponent, then if they have conceded top position then didn't they more or less give us what we wanted from the takedown anyways? Besides the 2 points of course. Say you're Cyborg and you wanted the takedown. He puled guard though. Well you didn't get your 2 points but he's where you wanted him so go ahead and try to pass right?

That sums up most of the takedown vs pull guard debate.

-Guard pulling sucks, then I'm stuck in the guard

-But where would you be if you got the takedown

-Stuck in the guard


I know that most guys imagine that they will go straight to mount or side control after every takedowns but they actually get stuck in halfguard most of the time. Maybe it's the satisfaction of getting those 2 points that changes their minds

 

[mataleaos]

I know that most guys imagine that they will go straight to mount or side control after every takedowns but they actually get stuck in halfguard most of the time. Maybe it's the satisfaction of getting those 2 points that changes their minds

Totally. For example adcc awards 2 points for takedowns but 4 points if the takedown or throw lands you clear of the guard. I can't even count how many adcc matches I've seen and I can only think of maybe 1 time I've seen Leo Vieira get that coveted "gold star takedown" with an ippon seoi nage throw to the north south position but I can't think of any other examples of it actually happening.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Unless you want the rule set be just about take downs which would be a different sport the top guy should forced to engage.
If you don't want to be on top why would should your takedown even score?
Gordon was butt scooting chasing him anyway, it's just the top guy is faster and will run away.

"being on top" is a big disadvantage under IBJJF rules unless you swept your opponent to get there. without a -1 to force the guard puller into action, the match then becomes a battle where the top player has to do a very difficult thing to score (pass a black belt guard), while the bottom player has to do a relatively easy thing (sweep). further, the guard player can get advantages for attempting subs without sacrificing position, while the top player risks giving up 2 for the sweep if he goes for a sub and fails. I agree that Cyborg's passivity was egregious, but at the same time we can't just ignore Gordon's role (i.e. IBJJF's role) in making this a passive match.

 

[LugWrenchBjj]

Gordon roidin did well

 

[trustdoesntrust]

That sums up most of the takedown vs pull guard debate.

-Guard pulling sucks, then I'm stuck in the guard

-But where would you be if you got the takedown

-Stuck in the guard


I know that most guys imagine that they will go straight to mount or side control after every takedowns but they actually get stuck in halfguard most of the time. Maybe it's the satisfaction of getting those 2 points that changes their minds

The -1 point switches the impetus of the exchange to the guard player now needing to force the action, because if he doesn't score then he will lose. As is, the top player has the default handicap of having to force the action, which is especially disadvantageous considering that the bottom player has easier ways to score (sweeps, and ability to get advantages without risking position; compared to cleanly passing a black belt's guard)

 

[mataleaos]

"being on top" is a big disadvantage under IBJJF rules unless you swept your opponent to get there. without a -1 to force the guard puller into action, the match then becomes a battle where the top player has to do a very difficult thing to score (pass a black belt guard), while the bottom player has to do a relatively easy thing (sweep). further, the guard player can get advantages for attempting subs without sacrificing position, while the top player risks giving up 2 for the sweep if he goes for a sub and fails. I agree that Cyborg's passivity was egregious, but at the same time we can't just ignore Gordon's role (i.e. IBJJF's role) in making this a passive match.

Being on top is arguably a disadvantage in sub-only as well. The bottom player can spam sub attempts without sacrificing position as well.

So I agree with you that most of the rules out there almost encourage a "race to the bottom" mentality. The initial post of yours I quoted says that IBJJF rules allow the bottom player to basically stall. And that's true but I don't see what that has to do with Gordon who did not stall at all this weekend. He said his neck was injured and he decided to not wrestle and press the action as best as possible from guard. Maybe you believe the neck injury thing or maybe not. Gordon can be insufferable on social media but he is very honest about matches win or lose and assessing his performance.

So I guess as the end of the day regardless of where each man was positionally, in the Gordon x Cyborg match I saw one guy trying to press the action and one guy not engaging

 

[mataleaos]

The -1 point switches the impetus of the exchange to the guard player now needing to force the action, because if he doesn't score then he will lose. As is, the top player has the default handicap of having to force the action, which is especially disadvantageous considering that the bottom player has easier ways to score (sweeps, and ability to get advantages without risking position; compared to cleanly passing a black belt's guard)

I don't mind a -1 for a guard pull.

I think this discussion gets hard for people because in almost every context outside of judges and advantages, being on top is better. But in this tiny realm of IBJJF or Fight 2 Win rulesets the bottom player has a decent advantage.

And as a side note there are ways for the top player to spam sub attempts as well without passing cleanly or losing position and I wonder why we don't see them more.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Being on top is arguably a disadvantage in sub-only as well. The bottom player can spam sub attempts without sacrificing position as well.

So I agree with you that most of the rules out there almost encourage a "race to the bottom" mentality. The initial post of yours I quoted says that IBJJF rules allow the bottom player to basically stall. And that's true but I don't see what that has to do with Gordon who did not stall at all this weekend. He said his neck was injured and he decided to not wrestle and press the action as best as possible from guard. Maybe you believe the neck injury thing or maybe not. Gordon can be insufferable on social media but he is very honest about matches win or lose and assessing his performance.

So I guess as the end of the day regardless of where each man was positionally, in the Gordon x Cyborg match I saw one guy trying to press the action and one guy not engaging

sub only definitely favors the bottom guy, though maybe not as much in pure no-time-limit sub only. it wasn't just cyborg, every one of Gordon's opponents except the guy who lost 47-0 had the strategy of disengaging and trying to make things rough. I think it's important to analyze why EVERYBODY had this strategy, and Gaudio almost won by using it. Obviously Gordon's skill is a big part of it, but clearly the rules are encouraging it as well.