Nigel Farage - There is a Fifth Column of Traitors in Europe

Doesn't seem it to me. I see two groups of traitors pushing us towards conflict, Muslim fundamentalists on one side ams nationalists on the other.

The issue I have with your posts are that you week literally attribute anything whatsoever to globalism/illuminati conspiracy, no matter what, and as of yet I haven't seen a single topic you've posted about that demonstrates the ability to think critically about any topic of any complexity. I really do think you're trolling and have been the entire time though - sorry if you aren't but it's all just bland, vague soundbites that you never actually explain, including the above post.

Yes I focus more on those with actual power. We have the nationalists on one side, Muslim fundamentalists on the other, and the ones in power above them creating the predictable mess for their own reasons.

I'm not sure a nationalist would qualify as a traitor really, but that is a small point.
 
Hindsight bias/unrealistic expectations of intelligence. Read this.

The article doesn't say it's an unrealistic expectation of intelligence. It says they have the intelligence, just not the manpower to get the work done. This part also caught my eye:

The younger Kouachi, Cherif, had been jailed for seeking to join Iraqi jihadists nearly a decade ago. In prison, he was mentored by the al-Qaeda-linked Djamel Beghal, who himself had spent time at Finsbury Park mosque in London, where he was an associate of the radical cleric Abu Hamza.

They need to separate these Jihadi Johns when they go to prison..
 
Nigel Farage, the leader of UKIP (and personal hero of mine) has called out a ridiculous policy of multiculturalism and unfettered immigration as promoting a treasonous fifth column of radical Moslems intent on destroying Europe.

I happen to think he is incredibly correct on all points. In fact, is there any legitimate argument to suggest that Europe has not cooked its own goose by allowing in millions of people who have little by hatred and contempt for Europe and its culture? Worse: This was done above and beyond the will of most European peoples, who never asked for this invasion, and now must live with the consequences, perhaps permanently?

You can read the full article here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...rather-gross-policy-of-multi-culturalism.html

Some select quotes:

"Last night, Mr Farage told Channel 4 News: "There is a very strong argument that says that what happened in Paris is a result - and we've seen it in London too - is a result I'm afraid of now having a fifth column living within these countries.

"We've got people living in these countries, holding our passports, who hate us.

"Luckily their numbers are very, very small but it does make one question the whole really gross attempt at encouraged division within society that we have had in the past few decades in the name of multiculturalism."

My only concern is that he does not go far enough in calling for a complete end to immigration to European countries.

If Moslems take over, they take over I don't think most Europeans care
people have conquering each other for ever it's nothing new.
 
Yes I focus more on those with actual power. We have the nationalists on one side, Muslim fundamentalists on the other, and the ones in power above them creating the predictable mess for their own reasons.

I'm not sure a nationalist would qualify as a traitor really, but that is a small point.

You just attribute any fact or new piece of information in line with you're existing beliefs seemingly without the ability or desire to understand it.

And these are people who pay lip service to Western values, while at the same time advocate radical and illiberal changes to our societies. Sounds traitorous to me.
 
You are a better person than I, and the world is better with you in it. Me, not so much.

Doubt it!

Any leader from the Far Right is going to, by definiton, not come from the current ruling classes,


I thought Nigel Farage was a 'personal hero' of yours? How much more ruling class can you get than that guy? He's so connected that he went straight from high school to working in the City lol


Are you seriously considering outlying cases of immigration in order to undermine the idea that Britain is an ethno-state?

This is ridiculous.

In the Bronze Age at the time the Amesbury Archer arrived, the population of the British Isles would only have been about 20k. So I think it's fair to say that any immigration when numbers were that low would be significant... Goodness knows how many people were actually coming over during that era. Certainly by the later Bronze Age trade was really picking up as evidenced by the proliferation of the Beaker culture.

Anyhow.. point is - Say our Amesbury friend had 2 children 4,500 years ago.. and each generation (we'll call it 30 years per Generation to be very conservative) had 2 children and so forth.. He would have had 2^150 ancestors by now. I'm not sure how many would be about today; but it would be a huge number related to just that one guy. To some extent or other (presuming he had kids), we're probably both related to him.

In fact according to this thing I just read when I was optimistically thinking I could work that out - you're related to some extent or other to everyone who lived in Europe 600 years ago (http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/05/07/charlemagnes-dna-and-our-universal-royalty/)

(Uh oh, that definitely would mean that you're related to some of the Moors.. you have 'Moslem' ancestors! *awkward*)



Any cursory genetic research on the peoples of Great Britain will remark the Celto-Germanic lineage of the peoples. The only mass migrations of people have come by conquest, as by the Saxons against the Britons, in British history.

I don't even know where to begin with this...

Firstly, you're using the term 'peoples of Great Britain' as if that's always been a 'entity'. Such a concept has only existed for the last few hundred years and is a purely social construct.

For almost the entire history of the British Isles (as with all nation states) it's been populated by a disparate mess of conflicting powers. You want to use a modern definition to encompass the societal strata you're currently comfortable with aligning yourself with - so that you can say you're 'British'. But that really means nothing at all.

If you want to argue that you're Glaswegian, Scottish, British, Northern European, Caucasian, Eurasion, African.. It's all a purely subjective matter of where you want to draw the line.


..more importantly though, why on earth does it matter?
 
If Moslems take over, they take over I don't think most Europeans care
people have conquering each other for ever it's nothing new.

Well they only make up about 4% in this country, so they really need to get a move on..
 
To me you just appear to attribute any fact or new piece of information in line with you're existing beliefs seemingly without the ability or desire to understand it.

And these are people who pay lip service to Western values, while at the same time advocate radical and illiberal changes to our societies. Sounds traitorous to me.

Updated for accuracy. Without being able to mind read fully, an assertion like you made is impossible to make.

I understand if you perceive what I say as that though. That's fine. We all have different understandings of how things work based on studying the problem in different ways and incorporating different factors and information into the overall picture. Seeing things differently is perfectly normal between different people.

As to nationalists introducing radical changes, well it could also be viewed as pushing back against radical changes that are currently happening before our very eyes. So, it's certainly open for interpretation. Doing nothing and going with the status quo accepts radical changes.
 
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This is what you get when you are educated almost entirely on youtube videos.

60% of Muslims in Europe are violent jihadists? That is quite astonishing, given I live with hundreds of thousands in my city, workplace and other events, and never met a single one. It's almost as if you have no actually clue about the subject you're preaching about.

I'm amazed that you believe in a totally coordinated Islamic takeover of an entire continent, when muslim countries aren't even able to look after their own affairs without war and genocide. Is this all part of the conspiracy?

60% support them and some of that 60% have the potential to become some in time based on their beliefs and actions. Hence my point about the Muslim students supporting the terrorists.

As for the conspiracy - there is none that involve the greater population but that doesn't change the fact that powers in Europe including important Muslims don't want an insidious and potentially destructive increase in the Muslim European population.
 
60% support them and some of that 60% have the potential to become some in time based on their beliefs and actions. Hence my point about the Muslim students supporting the terrorists.

As for the conspiracy - there is none that involve the greater population but that doesn't change the fact that powers in Europe including important Muslims don't want an insidious and potentially destructive increase in the Muslim European population.

I'll listen when you stop pulling figures out your arse. Do you even live in Britain, or any of the countries you're talking about, or do you speak out of emotion and ignorance?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with the second paragraph.
 
I thought Nigel Farage was a 'personal hero' of yours? How much more ruling class can you get than that guy? He's so connected that he went straight from high school to working in the City lol

And remains a political outsider who currently leads a minority party.

In the Bronze Age at the time the Amesbury Archer arrived, the population of the British Isles would only have been about 20k. So I think it's fair to say that any immigration when numbers were that low would be significant... Goodness knows how many people were actually coming over during that era. Certainly by the later Bronze Age trade was really picking up as evidenced by the proliferation of the Beaker culture.

That there was some movement of peoples in the Neolithic does not much change the reality of a British nation formed over successive generations in the Neolithic period. Related peoples, spread out over a relatively small sector of Europe, can come together to form a nation. In fact, this is how Britain became Celtic, almost surely, as Celts moved from continental Europe to the outlying islands, including Great Britain.

That's...not problematic. I am not suggesting the population of Great Britain is exaclty the same as the earliest inhabitants at the last glacial maximum, although I-m223 Isles has been in Great Britain for 4000 years.

Anyhow.. point is - Say our Amesbury friend had 2 children 4,500 years ago.. and each generation (we'll call it 30 years per Generation to be very conservative) had 2 children and so forth.. He would have had 2^150 ancestors by now. I'm not sure how many would be about today; but it would be a huge number related to just that one guy. To some extent or other (presuming he had kids), we're probably both related to him.

And related to the 19,999 other Britons at the time, too.

In fact according to this thing I just read when I was optimistically thinking I could work that out - you're related to some extent or other to everyone who lived in Europe 600 years ago (http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/05/07/charlemagnes-dna-and-our-universal-royalty/)

Those actually don't take into consideration actual ancestry, but impose a mathematical model that actually doesn't correspond to any actual connection.

But yes, we all have a tremendous amount of non-direct line ancestors going back a few thousand years ago. Autosomal DNA tests have revealed, however, the absolute perdominance of European genetics in Europeans. Few have admixture from radically distinct peoples after the Neolithic agricultural revolution.

(Uh oh, that definitely would mean that you're related to some of the Moors.. you have 'Moslem' ancestors! *awkward*)

Unlikely, actually. I imagine the last Iberian ancestor I have was Visigothic.

I don't even know where to begin with this...

Firstly, you're using the term 'peoples of Great Britain' as if that's always been a 'entity'. Such a concept has only existed for the last few hundred years and is a purely social construct.

Clearly, you have a remarkably low-level knowledge genetics if you think the peoples of Great Britain are a social construct. The peoples of Great Britain compose a distinctive branch of Celto-Germanic (with some Roman admixture in historical times) peoples.

You can actually enumerate the people who make up the modern British nation.

From earliest to latest:

Paleolithic Europeans
Bronze Age Celts (Britons, including the Welsh, Cornish, Irish, and Scots who are more fully derived from these people).
Romans (small - few Romans actually influenced the gene pool).
Anglo-Saxons (and Jutes and Vandals in smaller numbers).
Vikings.
Normans.

Some early-modern and modern immigration from Hugenots, Germans, and even a wee bit of Jew (though the Jews have remained remarkably isolated from European populations in whatever country they've lived in, at least until the 20th century, and even then admixture is low).

You'll note these these people are part of the same race (excepting the Jews) and are closely related people within that race to begin with (Celts and Germans were often neighbouring peoples, as in Roman times in the forests of Germany).

We can actually identify lineages belonging to these peoples and identify historical movements based on genetics.

One can speak of a British nation, although the distinctiveness of each country on the island makes it better to speak of the peoples and nations of Great Britain. These people are English, Cornish, Welsh, and Scottish (and the Irish over on the isle next door). All of whom do have a legitimate claim to being distinct, although related, peoples from one another. Together, they do have something of a common heritage, and intermarriage and admixture means they have something of a connection between eachother.

For almost the entire history of the British Isles (as with all nation states) it's been populated by a disparate mess of conflicting powers. You want to use a modern definition to encompass the societal strata you're currently comfortable with aligning yourself with - so that you can say you're 'British'. But that really means nothing at all.

Yes, Europeans don't like eachother historically. That doesn't change the fact that there many of them are related peoples, and the peoples of Europe have genetic distinctiveness like any popopulation.

If you want to argue that you're Glaswegian, Scottish, British, Northern European, Caucasian, Eurasion, African.. It's all a purely subjective matter of where you want to draw the line.

No, there is a point where identity matches genetics.

..more importantly though, why on earth does it matter?

Because races and peoples evolved in different areas of the world and, through natural selection, have produced different biological strengths and weaknesses.

Moreover, it is a basic, natural right, for people to be able to preserve their unique identities forged over the centuries, and to resist conquest by foreigners if they are capable of so doing.
 
I'll listen when you stop pulling figures out your arse. Do you even live in Britain, or any of the countries you're talking about, or do you speak out of emotion and ignorance?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with the second paragraph.

About 12% of French people identify as Muslim. A poll puts 16% of total French citizens supporting ISIS. So 60% may be understating it but I just didn't want to suggest it was 100%.
http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795

The second paragraph is easy to understand; there are traitors and islamisists who have been controlling immigration policy, knowing that more and more Muslims are entering France and other European countries and over breeding to the consequence of population imbalance. This has resulted in a critical mass and the detriment of the freedom loving westernised non-Muslim population. The evidence of that is clear and compelling.
 
About 12% of French people identify as Muslim. A poll puts 16% of total French citizens supporting ISIS. So 60% may be understating it but I just didn't want to suggest it was 100%.
http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795

The second paragraph is easy to understand; there are traitors and islamisists who have been controlling immigration policy, knowing that more and more Muslims are entering France and other European countries and over breeding to the consequence of population imbalance. This has resulted in a critical mass and the detriment of the freedom loving westernised non-Muslim population. The evidence of that is clear and compelling.

A poll conducted by the Russian government masquerading as impartial news media doesn't do it for me.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...french-citizens-really-support-islamic-state/

And as someone who should hypothetically be worst affected by what you're describing, I honestly don't think you understand the terms you are using. "Population imbalance" - what does that even mean?

I'm assuming by you not answering the question that you don't live in any of the countries you're referring to and trying to "protect" and therefore can only argue with emotion and ignorance. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
The species cannot be accounted for in one's actions. "The species" is not the source of natural selection, but the individual.

Fair enough, but the species, not the individual, is the beneficiary of reproduction and natural selection.

Well it is, in the esnse that one's genes continue to persist after one has died. In that sense, the immortal element in mortality is expressed. Perhaps you find it somewhat poetic, but I think it is an accurate reflection.

Take, for instanec, the Y-Chromosome. There is a direct paternal ancestry that preserves the Y-Chromosome. My Y-Chromosome (which belongs to haplogroup I) could be traced back tens of thousands of years, and hundreds of generations, to an early paternal ancestor. This directly links me to his identity and his actions in his life. In a sense, I am an outgrowth of his deeds, as my sons will be of mine. Autosomal DNA is less resistant to this sort of change, due to greater recombination, but is likewise reflective of ancestry and the continuation of someone's line.

I understand all that, and this is why it's sentimentality. Albeit, well-informed sentimentality.
What you are describing is not immortality, it sounds more like a desperate rationalization of mortality (no offense intended).

I'm not saying that everything that makes you who and what you are is dead, but a vague genetic memory - barely a whisper of the original - left over a few generations down the line is not you.
You will be dead, therefore - sentimental rationalisation aside - you were never immortal.

Humanity,

Not exactly a reliable bunch

specifically, studies which relate to choices in life which make for legitimate happiness.

And there are a great many studies that indicate parental happiness increases as A) the parents get older; and B) The children grow up and move on.

Since relationships, in general, make people happier it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that as those parents get older, and their roster of friends starts to thin, it's simply the relationships that make them happier, rather than the source of those relationships.

Anyway, studies have to be funded by someone, so they tend to be agenda-driven.

And those people are murderous monsters and should be dealt with.

That's beside the point. I would say that those people should not have had children, and that any reason they come up with to rationalize such a decision would have been worth it.


I am not suggesting that responsibility to one's children doesn't imply a host of duties.

I didn't imply that you did.

If something makes one more fulfilled and happy, is it a true restriction on freedom?

If something restricts your freedom, it is a true restriction of freedom.
It could, of course, be debated whether or not freedom is really all it's cracked up to be.

On top of that, your question here is based on an assumption that cannot be validated to any level of satisafaction.

Any choice we make in life commits one to a course of action.

I didn't imply otherwise.

Women have a point in which they cannot choose otherwise, restricting their freedom to be mothers just as much as someone else (I mean biologically, as I am speaking purely of biological parenthood).

Yes, and one would hope that they had made the choice about whether or not to reproduce before the choice was made for them. This does nothing to counter the point that motherhood can be viewed as a restriction of freedom.

Very few economic considerations should be taken into account to permanently defer parenthood. It may require us to occasionally abstain, or only reproduce a number of times, but it rarely is so pressing as to make it ridiculous to choose parenthood.

This is a pretty immoral stance, and displays a distinct and selfish lack of concern for your offspring, or the life you might be forcing them to lead.
Though, that's possibly just because we live in very different worlds.

Suffice it to say that I interact daily with many people whose economic situation is tragic enough to justify neutering.

Moreover, those who tend to disfavour parenthood are those who have the economic resources to do so - meaning they are choosing this option out of mere nihilism.

Choosing not reproduce does not indicate nihilism. At all. Not even a little bit.

Psychological and social considerations are almost always nonsense.

So every mother is at least an average to good mother?
Alcoholic fathers don't exist?
Every neighbourhood is one that is suitable to raising children?

Society has been built around the institution of marriage and parenting in order to accomodate the future of said society.

So?

Unless one is truly warped, one is generally a healthy enough person to rais ea child.

Abusive parents exist. Parents who resent their children exist.
These terrible parents are not always people who were unhinged before having kids.


Ants are colony organsisms that could be considered as almost cells in a body, rather than as autonomous beings. But yes, okay, I grant you: Were we eusocial colony organisms, we'd not have a duty, individually, to reproduce.

Sure, sure, but ant societies are the closest existing parallel to human societies. They just happen to be better at it than us.

And, out of interest, to whom exactly do we owe this duty of reproduction?


It's about the individual's contribution to the next generation.

What does this mean?
Is it the individual's contribution to the next generation that he/she will produce? So, essentially, you owe it to the kids you haven't had to have them; or,
You owe it to society's next generation? Which, in essence, means you owe it to the species.

Sorry, I'm not sure what the third option is, though I acknowledge that there has to be one.

Dooming himself to oblivion is not a wise choice, in spite of the fact that his social legacy will be great.

Why wouldn't it be wise? What negative affect would 'oblivion' at the end of his life have on him?

In fact, he'll almost certainly hurt the "good of the species", which you speak of, by not passing on his good, scientist genes (intelligence and such) to the next generaiton.

Only about 40% - 50% of intelligence is hereditary.
He's do the world far more good by doing his work than he would by having kids and gambling on them doing it instead, while simultaneously serving as an example that humanitarian greatness is secondary to domestic mundanity.

That's vaslty dysgenic, and why it is so troubling that high-IQ nations (Europe and East Asia) feature below-replacement population growth, whereas low-IQ nations (Africa and Central America, much of Asia) feature hugely high reproductive rates. The net result of this behaviour is a world-wide lowering of IQ, that will become most pronounced when the worst areas in the world, IQ wise, will dwarf the population of high IQ areas.

1.) The fact that smarter people choose not to breed (or at least, not to excess) is pretty telling in itself.
2.) High IQ isn't all that important if you cannot put it to use. Every high-IQ individual on the planet choosing to pop out kids at the same rate as those of the low-IQ nations would reduce the productive output of their respective nations, and probably lead (eventually) to them becoming low-IQ nations themselves, since IQ is not entirely hereditary, and the environment which promotes it would fall to disrepair as the greater burden of more people was placed upon it.
3.) If the high-IQ nations did not pop kids out at the same rate as low-IQ nations, they would still be outnumbered.
4.) This argument isn't one you should be making, since it revolves around the benefit to the species, which you've indicated does not matter where reproduction is concerned.
5.) If you feel that low-IQ people outnumbering high-IQ people is such a bad thing, maybe you should be advocating for reduced reproduction amongst stupid people, rather than increased reproduction amongst smarter ones.
 
Fair enough, but the species, not the individual, is the beneficiary of reproduction and natural selection.

Not at all. As Dawkins reminded us in the selfish gene, the gene being reproduced (i.e. the individual's genes) are what is passed on. "The species" survives because individual genes are "selfish" in their "desire" to be passed along.

I prefer to take it to the more personal level and speak of "mortality participating in immortality". The individual gains knowledge of persistence in having placed a part of themselves in the next generation.

I understand all that, and this is why it's sentimentality. Albeit, well-informed sentimentality.
What you are describing is not immortality, it sounds more like a desperate rationalization of mortality (no offense intended).

No offense taken.

I'm not saying that everything that makes you who and what you are is dead, but a vague genetic memory - barely a whisper of the original - left over a few generations down the line is not you.
You will be dead, therefore - sentimental rationalisation aside - you were never immortal.

Obviously we are dead, but the biological influence is not at all lost. This is the reason why there is an inherent pull towards reproduction on the level of consciousness (as opposed to mere brute sex instinct). We understand that we are commiting a part of ourselves to eternity. A vanishingly small part, sure, although a very significant part in the direct line (as noted by the Y-Chromosome). I know exactly where my ancestor 30,000 years ago lived (ice age Europe) due to the Y-chromosome lineage he left behind. That is a bit more than merely dissolving into the mix of ancestry.

Although even if it was not, we are participating in the continuation of life by reproduction, and doom ourselves to utter disolution without it.


And there are a great many studies that indicate parental happiness increases as A) the parents get older; and B) The children grow up and move on.

Your point? The satisfaction of a job well done? Of realizing your offspring will actually surivve? You'll note that most people want to become grandparents. In terms of reproductive success, this makes sense: You not only secured persistence of your own genes for one generation, but produced a succesful carrier for the generation after that.

Since relationships, in general, make people happier it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that as those parents get older, and their roster of friends starts to thin, it's simply the relationships that make them happier, rather than the source of those relationships.

Save that most parents would not associate their relationship to their children as equivalent to even the relationship they hold with one another or with close friends. It is a special bond that is not reducible to marriage or friendship, and though perhaps not stronger than marriage (though most likely friendship), it nevertheless is significant.

Anyway, studies have to be funded by someone, so they tend to be agenda-driven.

Naturally.


That's beside the point. I would say that those people should not have had children, and that any reason they come up with to rationalize such a decision would have been worth it.

We can be mistaken, yes, and some people might well be better off, in an ethical sense, not reproducing.

If something restricts your freedom, it is a true restriction of freedom.
It could, of course, be debated whether or not freedom is really all it's cracked up to be.

On top of that, your question here is based on an assumption that cannot be validated to any level of satisafaction.

Building upon the satisfaction most people have in children, it seems reasonable to say that "restricting one's freedom" by having children may be a better way to exercise one's freedom.

Freedom is, in some sense, meant to be restricted: It is only by choosing -a- path of action, which commits us to a certain course of life, that we can exercise freedom at all. We cannot do this while retaining freedom in the abstract, which ultimately becomes its own choice of never doing anything of worth.

I thus contest that "tying oneself down" restricts one's freedom. It simply is a choice with certain responsibilities. The course with fewer responsibilities it not necessarily to be preferred.

Yes, and one would hope that they had made the choice about whether or not to reproduce before the choice was made for them. This does nothing to counter the point that motherhood can be viewed as a restriction of freedom.

It does because the alternative choice - the choice of never having children - can be viewed as even more restrictive.

Think of it this way, in a very crude sense. You have three choices for reproduction:

1. Have the child and keep it.

2. Have the child and give it up for adoption.

3. Never have the child.

1 is an option that can always be replaced with 2 (in most situations). 2 is a choice that gives you, in some sense, the "best of both worlds" (though it also takes away much of the benefits of having a child). Meanwhile, three is a choice which, at a certain point, is irrevocable. 2 is the ultimate in revocability, and 2 is always an option for 1.

A sort of crude game theory would probably say: Pick 1, keep 2 as an option, and reject 3 as it offers the fewest benefits.

This is a pretty immoral stance, and displays a distinct and selfish lack of concern for your offspring, or the life you might be forcing them to lead.
Though, that's possibly just because we live in very different worlds.

Under non-starvation conditions, generally speaking a parent can provide well for their children. Moreover, there is always adoption if one can't, and I find it hard to imagine that non-existence is a superior state to most lives.

Suffice it to say that I interact daily with many people whose economic situation is tragic enough to justify neutering.

Do you work in the third world? Because I can't imagine in the first world most people's situations are so bad they can't provide a relatively decent level of life for their children.

Anyone who lives in the first world is more or less guaranteed education, food, and housing. Homelessness is a small phenomena, and most of it derives from mental instability and such. So you really aren't in danger, in the modern world, of bringing a child so ineptly into the world that you can't provide for it.

Now sure, okay, I grant you that it is stupid to reproduce in a famine in Africa.

Choosing not reproduce does not indicate nihilism. At all. Not even a little bit.

It is seeking an end that dissolves into death. I take Nietzsche's conception of a nihilist saying "no" to life as being well exemplified in this sort of action of actively choosing to leave nothing behind, to commit nothing to the world in one's place.

So every mother is at least an average to good mother?
Alcoholic fathers don't exist?
Every neighbourhood is one that is suitable to raising children?


So?

Abusive parents exist. Parents who resent their children exist.
These terrible parents are not always people who were unhinged before having kids.

Considering the things we hav ein place to minimize parental harm, it is difficult to say "well, there are a small amount of people who are miserable to their children" to justify a general refusal to reproduce. Though perhaps if you are well aware that you will butcher (or otherwise abuse) your child, you should avoid having them. Nevertheless, even bad parents are usually capable of producing some good in their children.

Sure, sure, but ant societies are the closest existing parallel to human societies. They just happen to be better at it than us.

And, out of interest, to whom exactly do we owe this duty of reproduction?

Ant societies are complex like our own, but our biological systems are nothing like ants. We have no biological castes of sterile workers and such, nor are only one of one thousand of us capable of reproducing.

I would say "oneself", but I am thinking in terms of an objective will, rather than a subjective will. It is not something one can coherently will to be a universal principle (after Kant) that all should not reproduce, and thus you ought to not refuse reproduction if this is possible for one to participate in it.
 
What does this mean?
Is it the individual's contribution to the next generation that he/she will produce? So, essentially, you owe it to the kids you haven't had to have them; or,
You owe it to society's next generation? Which, in essence, means you owe it to the species.

Well, principally you owe it to -yourself- to reproduce, as you vanish away without such, but yes, in a sense we "owe it to the generation yet unborn". Specifically, our own progeny.

See above for a more full treatment of the sort of semi-Kantian duty I have in mind. I think that clarifies thing well (though clearly you didn't have this on hand when you asked the question as I just now typed it).

Sorry, I'm not sure what the third option is, though I acknowledge that there has to be one.

Why wouldn't it be wise? What negative affect would 'oblivion' at the end of his life have on him?

If we assume that existence is a good - which I take it to be, as it seems reasonable to prefer existence ove rnon-existence, especially when the existence we speak of cannot be painful to us - then he lacks the only sort of biological existence he can have post-mortem. A child is, in some sense, the living embodiment of the parents, securing a certain essential quality of the parents (the genes in biological terms) lives on. Without this, the person truly goes to the grave in a biological sense.

Now, I grant you, a social legacy is a vastly important thing to consider as well.

Cattle die, and kinsmen die.
Thyself eke soon wilt die;
but fair fame will fade never,
I ween, for him who wins it.

And all that is well and good (thanks Odin!), but it is not a replacement, but a supplement, to biological existence.

Though biological life is also fragile, consider once again the Y-chromsome example. There is no greater contribution to the world that my great sire made than that I exist, carrying his Y-chromosome, in a physical sense. He has almost certainly left nothing social to this day.

Most of us shall not be Achilles. We shall not have a name which shall endure the ages. We thus are best preserved by biological contribution.

Hell: The single cell organism from which we all descend has had the greatest influence in the history of the world.

Only about 40% - 50% of intelligence is hereditary.
He's do the world far more good by doing his work than he would by having kids and gambling on them doing it instead, while simultaneously serving as an example that humanitarian greatness is secondary to domestic mundanity.

I've read a minimum of 60%. Regardless, even if 40-50% of intelligence is hereditary, I am still depriving "the species" of my intelligence by not reproducing.

I am not suggesting we ought to not contribute to mankind. In fact, we VERY MUCH ought to. But we can do that while simultaneously securing a genetic legacy for ourselves.

1.) The fact that smarter people choose not to breed (or at least, not to excess) is pretty telling in itself.

I would say this is a mark of the downside of intelligence. There can be a time when a well adapted trait (intelligence) can become maladaptive when it actively seeks to exterminate itself. I take any sort of intelligence that tells people "nah, just don't have kids" to be an evolutionary dead end, leading ultimately to the dysgenic conclusion of worldwide lowering of IQs.


2.) High IQ isn't all that important if you cannot put it to use. Every high-IQ individual on the planet choosing to pop out kids at the same rate as those of the low-IQ nations would reduce the productive output of their respective nations, and probably lead (eventually) to them becoming low-IQ nations themselves, since IQ is not entirely hereditary, and the environment which promotes it would fall to disrepair as the greater burden of more people was placed upon it.

Societies with high IQ rarely are so desperate in their conditions as to require their high-IQ people to not reproduce lest their society collapse in a Malthusian bottleneck.

The hereditary nature of IQ is stron genough that it is vastly preferrable if people with high IQ to reproduce as much, if not more, than people with less IQs. Now of course, truly excessive population growth would be a negative to any society, but they should at the very least reach replacement population.

The society would very unlikely reach a point, in any foreseeable future, where we'd need people with 150 IQs becoming farmers because only 200 IQ people can do anything better. Even then: A world where our lowest IQ would be remarkably high (which obviously it would not be) would still be better. It'd suck to hvae an IQ of 150 and be a farmer, but it'd be telling if our "low mark" was that high. Presumably, we'd get some damn good farming from them. Like, ridiculously good farming - some true green innovations!

Moreover, as it stands right now the world is being burdened by the masses of low-IQ. Which is better for a given world: To be burdened by a large population of high IQ or low IQ people? It would seem inherently better that we have a crisis of having too many smart people, as opposed to too many stupid people. We stand to gain far more from the intelligence than the stupid.

3.) If the high-IQ nations did not pop kids out at the same rate as low-IQ nations, they would still be outnumbered.

Yes, though the gap would be less. High-IQ nations have long ago fallen behind lower IQ nations, sadly.

4.) This argument isn't one you should be making, since it revolves around the benefit to the species, which you've indicated does not matter where reproduction is concerned.

It can't work on the level of the individual, but it can work on the level of society. I am speaking now not merely as a "reason why an individual ought to choose reproduction", but why we should all consider these things important on a social level.

5.) If you feel that low-IQ people outnumbering high-IQ people is such a bad thing, maybe you should be advocating for reduced reproduction amongst stupid people, rather than increased reproduction amongst smarter ones.

That would be acceptable, albeit it not ideal. Non-replacement population in high-IQ countries would still shrink the population of available smart people, but yes, I would be extremely fine with advocating that anyone with an IQ below 80 should be encouraged (or perhaps forced - though I don't know how we could humanely do that) to not reproduce. This would have the really bad effect of effectively depopulating vast swathes of the world, but, well, that would probably be for the best, too.
 
This is going to be my last response on this. Not because I don't find the discussion to be engaging, and informative (I do) but I feel like I'm bumping a thread just to continue derailing it, since I'm not actually taking part in the intended discussion.

Not at all. As Dawkins reminded us in the selfish gene, the gene being reproduced (i.e. the individual's genes) are what is passed on. "The species" survives because individual genes are "selfish" in their "desire" to be passed along.

Yes, the species survives due to the individual's reproduction. The species benefits. And yes, the individual's line benefits as well, but the individual him/herself does not.


Obviously we are dead, but the biological influence is not at all lost.

Well, of course the biological influence continues, but that is not the same as immortality. This places reproduction closer to altruism than it does to rationality - breeding for the good of the world or the good of the line, rather than for intellectually selfish motives. Just as you say that the species cannot be taken into account when it comes to motivation for breeding, I'd say that - at least for humans - you overstate the genetic motivation.

One of the reasons I say that the quoted woman's reasoning is rational is because it's an example of instinct running headlong into intellect, and coming up short. She's making the decision whose outcome is more predictably in her favour.

This is the reason why there is an inherent pull towards reproduction on the level of consciousness (as opposed to mere brute sex instinct). We understand that we are commiting a part of ourselves to eternity. A vanishingly small part, sure, although a very significant part in the direct line (as noted by the Y-Chromosome). I know exactly where my ancestor 30,000 years ago lived (ice age Europe) due to the Y-chromosome lineage he left behind. That is a bit more than merely dissolving into the mix of ancestry.

Again, I am not seeing where the quantifiable benefit to the individual is. It seems disingenuous to label a choice illogical or irrational when the only alternative choice is one that has no measurable benefit to the person making the decision.

Although even if it was not, we are participating in the continuation of life by reproduction, and doom ourselves to utter disolution without it.


Choosing not to reproduce is not the same as choosing not to participate in the continuation of life. It is choosing not to participate in the continuation of your line, and there is no rational reason one should feel obliged to do so.

Your point? The satisfaction of a job well done? Of realizing your offspring will actually surivve? You'll note that most people want to become grandparents. In terms of reproductive success, this makes sense: You not only secured persistence of your own genes for one generation, but produced a succesful carrier for the generation after that.

The satisfaction of a job well done assumes that the job was well done. Would you say that the mother of the woman quoted did a good job when she produced a daughter that has decided that her line will end with her?
If the woman's grandfather had one child, then his job was also not well done either, as he produced the offspring that doomed his line. If he had multiple children, then it could be argued that this one would have been more successful had she helped her siblings raise their kids, increasing the chances of success, rather than wasting resources having her own.
Also, I would contend that "most people want to have grandchildren" is not a verifiable assertion.


Save that most parents would not associate their relationship to their children as equivalent to even the relationship they hold with one another or with close friends. It is a special bond that is not reducible to marriage or friendship, and though perhaps not stronger than marriage (though most likely friendship), it nevertheless is significant.

I'd say that one's relationship to one's children is most certainly stronger than their marital relationships, seeing as how a great many divorces find children at their core. That is instinctual, though. It is not evidence of a rewarding relationship, so much as that of an irrational, biologically motivated one. Cuckoos (or rather their host parents) provide a certain amount of evidence that a biological drive is far from rational, is not necessarily "right", and is not always is in the best interests of one's line.
Adoption serves as a similar example of a parasite taking priority over one's own.


We can be mistaken, yes, and some people might well be better off, in an ethical sense, not reproducing.

Should those people kill themselves?
This question sounds facetious, but I'm serious. If choosing not to reproduce is an irrational, genetically suicidal decision, but choosing to reproduce is unethical, would those people be better served simply ending it?
Or should ethics be put aside in favour of adhering to a biological imperative that, as a species, we may well have outgrown the need for?


Building upon the satisfaction most people have in children, it seems reasonable to say that "restricting one's freedom" by having children may be a better way to exercise one's freedom.

The problem is the assumption that "most people" get some satisfaction out of having children that is inherently better than the satisfaction they might have found without children.
It also ignores the possibility that having children might make people miserable, and that their "satisfaction" is found through sheer cognitive dissonance.

Freedom is, in some sense, meant to be restricted: It is only by choosing -a- path of action, which commits us to a certain course of life, that we can exercise freedom at all. We cannot do this while retaining freedom in the abstract, which ultimately becomes its own choice of never doing anything of worth.

I thus contest that "tying oneself down" restricts one's freedom. It simply is a choice with certain responsibilities. The course with fewer responsibilities it not necessarily to be preferred.

Agreed.

Think of it this way, in a very crude sense. You have three choices for reproduction:

1. Have the child and keep it.

2. Have the child and give it up for adoption.

3. Never have the child.


1 is an option that can always be replaced with 2 (in most situations). 2 is a choice that gives you, in some sense, the "best of both worlds" (though it also takes away much of the benefits of having a child). Meanwhile, three is a choice which, at a certain point, is irrevocable. 2 is the ultimate in revocability, and 2 is always an option for 1.

A sort of crude game theory would probably say: Pick 1, keep 2 as an option, and reject 3 as it offers the fewest benefits.

I don't agree with this. First, it ignores surrogacy and adoption (adopting a child, rather than giving a child up for adoption) as methods of overcoming your own biological sell-by date. If you have not chosen to adopt (or go the route of surrogacy) by the time you are too old to be allowed to adopt, there is a better than fair chance that you do not feel that your life is missing anything by not having offspring.
It also ignores the fact that choosing to have a child is restrictive because of the other aspects of life that having a child might deny you.
The assumption that this list is predicated on is that having a child is the most rewarding activity that a human can engage in, and as that is one assumption I'm opposing, I can't debate these points from the worldview that you're attempting to engage me on.
 
Under non-starvation conditions, generally speaking a parent can provide well for their children. Moreover, there is always adoption if one can't...

There is also the option of donating eggs/semen. Perpetuating one's line without the restrictions of parenthood, or the havoc that childbirth can wreak on one's body.

...I find it hard to imagine that non-existence is a superior state to most lives.

I don't. So this is kind of a non-point from both of us.

Do you work in the third world? Because I can't imagine in the first world most people's situations are so bad they can't provide a relatively decent level of life for their children.

I live in Africa, and while South Africa might be considered a "developing nation" you'd not be hard-pressed to find vast swathes of the population whose living standards are Third World.

The real question here is whether or not you'd accept that some Third World parents would have been wiser to have chosen not to be parents.
If you can make that concession, then I'm not sure how it is that you can't accept that even a first world potential parent might look at the world around her and decide that the future she sees is not one she wants to introduce a child to.
OTOH, if you can't make that concession, then our points-of-view are too wildly opposed to realistically find a middle ground.

Anyone who lives in the first world is more or less guaranteed education, food, and housing. Homelessness is a small phenomena, and most of it derives from mental instability and such. So you really aren't in danger, in the modern world, of bringing a child so ineptly into the world that you can't provide for it.

I can't comment too much on this point, as I don't live in a first world country.

Now sure, okay, I grant you that it is stupid to reproduce in a famine in Africa.

You're now adding qualifiers to the assertion that it is every living creature's duty to reproduce. Sometimes, that duty is stupid to adhere to. All you know about the woman quoted is that she is genetically suicidal. I would contend that wasting time on a suicidal line is as stupid as producing children that are likely to simply starve to death.

Basically, if there is a single argument against reproduction being a duty that all need to be faithful to, the chances are there are more and that you simply haven't been exposed to, or considered them.


It is seeking an end that dissolves into death. I take Nietzsche's conception of a nihilist saying "no" to life as being well exemplified in this sort of action of actively choosing to leave nothing behind, to commit nothing to the world in one's place.

You're projecting your beliefs onto others.
My terraforming scientist, for example, might not believe that immortality (or a romantic notion of it, anyhow) is gained through the reproduction of his own line. He is trying to guarantee the perpetuation of the species, and, yes, the immortalisation of his name through his deeds. He might be wrong, or he might fail, but he is not a nihilist. You would have to understand more of his motivations to be able to make that claim.

Darwin's idea of the altruism instinct (not exactly what he called it, but anyway) fits in with this, and is evidence of a duty to the species, not to the self. A cop that gets shot to death in defense of someone else's child, for instance, is not a nihilist and has not said 'no' to life.

The woman quoted mentioned that her mother had no appreciation of motherhood, and that she doesn't either. In that situation, choosing not to become a mother seems fairly rational - the duty you're imposing upon her could very well lead to her having children that she resents, and those children would grow up being resentful of her, and equally resentful of the world they were forced in to. The choice to end that cycle is not necessarily the wrong choice.
She has no faith in her ability to constructively contribute directly to the perpetuation of life, but without knowing more about her, you cannot definitively say that she is saying 'no' to life (with the understanding that I do not buy into the idea that perpetuation of your line equates to immortality). She is simply saying 'no' to her self-destructive line.
Quite possible a very responsible decision.

Considering the things we hav ein place to minimize parental harm, it is difficult to say "well, there are a small amount of people who are miserable to their children" to justify a general refusal to reproduce. Though perhaps if you are well aware that you will butcher (or otherwise abuse) your child, you should avoid having them. Nevertheless, even bad parents are usually capable of producing some good in their children.

I don't think that there are a small number of people who are miserable to their children. I think that a great many parents should have refrained from popping out kids.
The examples I cited are extremes, but they are not the only justifications for not having kids.
And to turn your statement around, saying that even bad parents can produce "some good" in their children is not sufficient justification to have them just because you can. We're not exactly running out of people. At worst, we might be low on quality people, but putting forward the idea that everyone has the duty to reproduce is going to do nothing to solve that.

Ant societies are complex like our own, but our biological systems are nothing like ants.

I know, that's why I said their societies. on an individual level we're almost nothing alike.

We have no biological castes of sterile workers and such, nor are only one of one thousand of us capable of reproducing.

This isn't entirely true of ants either (though it is in some species).
In general, all ants are capable of reproducing (even if that capability is suppressed). The reason they don't is because it is not in their best genetic interests to do so when a queen is present.
There is an optimal limit on genetic variation, and at some point you're just competing with variations on your own genealogy.
Your Y-Chromosome example illustrates this. You can trace its origins back thousands of years, but you're not the only carrier of it, and you might not even be the best suited to continuing the line. If you have a duty to your genes, maybe that duty would dictate that you not reproduce because someone else in your society would produce healthier, smarter, stronger offspring with the same genetic origins, and your offspring would be competing for resources that someone else deserves more.

An aversion to reproduction could be nothing more than an intellectual rationalization of this instinctual awareness.
 
Hah! Okay, this is getting out of hand.
AlucardNatasrd, this has been great, and I did intend on replying to your second post, but seeing as how my reply to your first one required two long-ass posts, I'm not going to.

Hope you understand.
 
Lebanon is the textbook for what Islam does when it takes over (breeds out) a Christian land, it was only the Israeli invation that thwarted the jihadists from genoicde of the Maronite Christians and nobody gave a shit. I write as an Englishman fearful for my country with 3m Muslims that double in number each decade. It might already be too late for large swathes of urban England.
 
Lebanon is the textbook for what Islam does when it takes over (breeds out) a Christian land, it was only the Israeli invation that thwarted the jihadists from genoicde of the Maronite Christians and nobody gave a shit. I write as an Englishman fearful for my country with 3m Muslims that double in number each decade. It might already be too late for large swathes of urban England.

Yeah the Christian % of Lebanon has dropped noticeably from decades back when they were something like 68% to now they are 40% and Muslims (Shia + Sunni) outnumber them. The consolation for Lebanon is that Shia are not bad like Salafists, and atleast in Syria they are fighting those Sunnis who are destroying Christians.
 
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