Nicholas Wade and the Reality of Race

[Cubo de Sangre]

We certianly have a disposition towards certain behavior based on genetics, but an actual observable behavioral trait cannot be inherited, only predispositions.

For example, the behavioral trait of alcoholism runs in my family. Everyone loves to drink. I like it too. It does not however, force me to engage in the behavior. I do not drink, at all. The genetic predisposition is there, but the trait itself is absent. I did not inherit it, because there are too many other factors in behavior.

Is the word "trait" the bone of contention here? There's agreement on predisposition?

With drinking, you say you like it but don't do it. One trait trumped another or the predisposition was never mean to manifest itself?

 

[Cold Front]

We certianly have a disposition towards certain behavior based on genetics, but an actual observable behavioral trait cannot be inherited, only predispositions.

Word games.

If I want to increase the fighting dispositions of my dogs by breeding them for more aggressiveness, can I do so?

If I want to increase the intelligence of my animals through breeding, can I do so?

If I want to increase their tameness or ability to produce milk or any other behavioral trait I desire, can I do so?

The answer to all these questions is yes, and the reason the answer is always yes is because of a variation of that law I stated to you earlier.

 

[Cold Front]

Do you see the error here? I tried to make it easy to spot.

There's no error, except in your distorted and misinformed thinking that probabilities somehow revoke scientific laws.

 

[7437]

Is the word "trait" the bone of contention here? There's agreement on predisposition?

With drinking, you say you like it but don't do it. One trait trumped another or the predisposition was never mean to manifest itself?

My contention with the other guy is more on the definition of a scientific law.

I would certainly agree predisposition is a thing. My predisposition is there, I get cravings for it all the time. I do not have the behavioral traits of an alcoholic though, because more than the genes influence behavior. Only the predisposition can be inherited, not the behaviors.

 

[Cold Front]

My contention with the other guy is more on the definition of a scientific law.

I would certainly agree predisposition is a thing. My predisposition is there, I get cravings for it all the time. I do not have the behavioral traits of an alcoholic though, because more than the genes influence behavior. Only the predisposition can be inherited, not the behaviors.

There's always genetic variation in any family because most behavioral traits are polygenic and hence balanced by other competing traits. That has nothing to do with the first law of behavioral genetics.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I do not have the behavioral traits of an alcoholic though, because more than the genes influence behavior. Only the predisposition can be inherited, not the behaviors.

Absolutely. Environment changes behavior. What's the difference between behavior and personality? Is personality just a fancy way of saying "collection of behaviors"?

 

[Cold Front]

Absolutely. Environment changes behavior. What's the difference between behavior and personality? Is personality just a fancy way of saying "collection of behaviors"?

Environment, as most people typically conceive of it, has little to do with sibling differences.

Every family has genetic variation within the family. In a family of tall people, for example, not all are equally tall. In a family of smart people, not all are equally smart. In a family of squares, not all are equally squarish.

So why would it be a surprise that a sober fellow might come out of a drunk family, and the explanation still be genetic?

Even for skin color, genes can assert their influence in a single family quite differently. Look at these twin girls from a mixed-race marriage, for example:

 

[7437]

Word games.

If I want to increase the fighting dispositions of my dogs by breeding them for more aggressiveness, can I do so?

No, that is a learned behavior. This article goes over how fighting dogs can be rehabilitated. You cannot rehabilitate genetics.

http://www.aspca.org/about-us/faq/w...og-fight-operations-can-they-be-rehabilitated

If I want to increase the intelligence of my animals through breeding, can I do so?

Yes, that isnt a behavioral trait though.

If I want to increase their tameness or ability to produce milk or any other behavioral trait I desire, can I do so?

Tameness, sort of. A large part of that is learned. You can tame a fucking bear if you are good at it. This guy sure as hell didnt breed this bear to be tame, it is trained.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVMBdi4dgME

On the flip side, dogs bred for "tameness" are not always safe to be around. Take these feral dogs for example.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/08/0821_030821_straydogs.html

The answer to all these questions are yes, and the reason the answer is always yes is because of a variation of that law I stated to you earlier.

No. You cannot breed a behavioral trait into an animal. It is possible to breed an animal to be easier to train for a certain behavior, but the genetics will not give that result on their own. Behavior is not heritable, only a predisposition.

 

[Cold Front]

Or this couple's children:

 

[7437]

Or this couple's children:

Thats some pretty stark behavioral differences there. You can tell by how one is darker.

 

[Cold Front]

7437,

You obviously haven't heard of the Russian scientist Dmitri K. Belyaev's fox experiment.

Read this and get back to us: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...tten-russian-experiment-in-fox-domestication/

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Environment, as most people typically conceive of it, has little to do with sibling differences.

Every family has genetic variation within the family. In a family of tall people, for example, not all are equally tall. In a family of smart people, not all are equally smart. In a family of squares, not all are equally squarish.

So why would it be a surprise that a sober fellow might come out of a drunk family, and the explanation still be genetic?

Why would I believe that environment doesn't influence behavior? Otherwise there is no such thing as learning.

 

[Cold Front]

Thats some pretty stark behavioral differences there. You can tell by how one is darker.

The point is that stark differences in a single family can occur for genetic reasons - just like a sober man can occasionally be found in a family of drunkards.

 

[7437]

Environment, as most people typically conceive of it, has little to do with sibling differences.

Every family has genetic variation within the family. In a family of tall people, for example, not all are equally tall. In a family of smart people, not all are equally smart. In a family of squares, not all are equally squarish.

So why would it be a surprise that a sober fellow might come out of a drunk family, and the explanation still be genetic?

Even for skin color, genes can assert their influence in a single family quite differently. Look at these twin girls from a mixed-race marriage, for example:

None of those traits are behavioral.

This study shows why twins have different behaviors, even with the same genetics, and how it is not caused by parental differences.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/dev/13/5/456/

 

[Cold Front]

Why would I believe that environment doesn't influence behavior? Otherwise there is no such thing as learning.

I said "Environment, as most people typically conceive of it, has little to do with sibling differences."

That middle clause is important - as is the fact I'm comparing brothers and sisters.

Most people conceive of environmental effects to knowledge, for example, as being something like more books in the home or the parents reading to their children.

But studies show these environmental differences have no effect.

 

[Cold Front]

None of those traits are behavioral.

This study shows why twins have different behaviors, even with the same genetics, and how it is not caused by parental differences.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/dev/13/5/456/

I'm not sure why you're telling me something I already know.

The reason I showed the differences in physical traits among twins was to point out that even for traits we consider genetically hard-wired in predictable ways, there are still occasionally surprising genetic differences.

So if that's true for seemingly more durable physical traits, why can't it be true for behavioral traits as well?

 

[7437]

7437,

You obviously haven't heard of the Russian scientist Dmitri K. Belyaev's fox experiment.

Read this and get back to us: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...tten-russian-experiment-in-fox-domestication/

I am familiar with the foxes. Ill bet you can train one to bite you too. They predisposed them to be calm...er, but they are not naturally tame. No animal is. It is learned.

I am not disputing that behavior is influenced by genetics, but actual behavioral traits are learned, not innate. There is influence from genetics to make it easier, but training is how you tame an animal.

 

[Cold Front]

I am familiar with the foxes. Ill bet you can train one to bite you too. They predisposed them to be calm...er, but they are not naturally tame. No animal is. It is learned.

It's not learned behavior ! For Christ's sake, read the damn article. They were gradually domesticated.

(Some of them were also gradually made more vicious to the point they would throw themselves against their cages upon the approach of any person.)

As for earlier using "tame" instead of "domesticated," bite me. It's late.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I said "Environment, as most people typically conceive of it, has little to do with sibling differences."

That middle clause is important - as is the fact I'm comparing brothers and sisters.

You're losing me. Environment in my mind is external forces. Those shape behavior. Disagree?

Does an organism make conscious decisions based on learning and innate desires or will science someday allow us to map out a being's entire personality upon birth?

 

[Cold Front]

Within ten generations of breeding foxes, Belyaev could get the ones selected for tameness to crawl up on his lap.

He treated those domesticated foxes no differently than he treated the vicious ones. The only difference was in how he controlled their breeding. The behavior was genetic, not learned.