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Nicholas Wade and the Reality of Race

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Cold Front, May 21, 2014.

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  1. UpaLoompa Grand Quasiprophet of the Sakaran Apocolyps

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    Yes indeed, I think Spencer ("Survival of the fittest") was a big proponent.
    It has been awhile since I read Descent of Man but if I recall Darwin himself didn't particularly subscribe to the notion that any but superficial differences (e.g. skin color) were "real" among races.
     
  2. Cubo de Sangre President of the War Room

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    So you're saying that with something like intelligence if you find a gene that goes hand in hand with skin color that something bad would then happen in society? Like people not wanting to breed with the inferior genetics, leaving only those with poor genetics to mate with poor genetics?

    I'm not sure I agree with beauty being more elusive to measure than intelligence. There's been a 1-10 scale in place my whole life. :)
     
  3. Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

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    Yeah, that's right out of the Oldgoat playbook:

    1. Forcefully make uncontroversial claim.
    2. State ridiculous thesis and assert that it follows from the claim made in 1.
    3. Say or imply that anyone who disagrees with 2 must disagree with 1 or must be lying because they don't like the implications of 2.
     
  4. UpaLoompa Grand Quasiprophet of the Sakaran Apocolyps

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    Sure but, to be fair, he made a ridiculously good post in this thread.
     
  5. Khabib Khanate Hashashiyan Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Not in the strictly biological sense but isn't it possible to have a disease that lowers one's quality of life noticeably but not enough to prevent the individual from reproducing because of modern medicine?
    I guess so
    Yes exactly. It does not even have to be really concrete, just as long as there is enough evidence to create the wide spread perception of one group as inferior intellectually than another.
    Every man's 1-10 scale is different though.
     
  6. UpaLoompa Grand Quasiprophet of the Sakaran Apocolyps

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    Well if we're not talking in a biological sense, sure.
     
  7. OldGoat Red Belt

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    Not so. OldGoat says differences have an effect. What effect can be attributed to what difference is impossible to say. I've said that in every last one of these sort of threads. You just have an obsession with not understanding those simple words and try to read too much into them. Denying differences have some effect and denying that all parts of a human are subject to physics and by extension biology IS politically motivated.

    I don't recall once making the claim that one set is superior to another because in my worldview survival is what is relevant and who knows 200 years from now what traits will be most likely to have survived.

    Furthermore, you make the assumption that everyone who acknowledges that biology is biology is doing so to justify racist beliefs. That is a disgusting tactic commonly used on the left to shape debate. By your standards you would be a sexist for acknowledging that a man on average can lift more than a woman. How bizarre.
     
  8. Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

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    The ants one?
     
  9. IDL Steel Belt

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    I agree that there are social consequences with that kind of information, regardless of what the findings are. It leaves the scientific arena and becomes political at that point.
     
  10. UpaLoompa Grand Quasiprophet of the Sakaran Apocolyps

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    Yeah, though I'd go with beetles.
    Or nematodes.
     
  11. Cubo de Sangre President of the War Room

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    Don't look now but that perception is already out there and people already discriminate against potential mates based on racial characteristics. Do most people don't breed based on gene selection or are other factors at play? You don't need a genetic test for ugliness and those people still marry and have kids. I'm living proof on the marrying part at least. :)

    Scales are different but it's not terribly difficult to make good guesses as to who will be found attractive in general. Are IQ tests are going to provide the exact same results for an individual taking them on multiple occasions? If not then how concrete are they from person to person?
     
  12. OldGoat Red Belt

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    Ants>>beetles. Except for one exhibit out west of army ants that got defeated by beetles.
     
  13. BKMMAFAN Silver Belt

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    What specifically in his book do you disagree with?


    Edit: Read some of those reviews. It seems it's not so much the "race does actual exist and different peoples have different genetic traits" thesis but the conclusions he draws are extremely speculative.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
  14. UpaLoompa Grand Quasiprophet of the Sakaran Apocolyps

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    clade fitness
     
  15. Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Yeah, and who is the God of Ant scientists?

    EO Wilson.

    And how did EO Wilson review Wade's book?

    Edward O. Wilson (Harvard):
     
  16. Khabib Khanate Hashashiyan Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Its almost unavoidable really
    Well of course there is still racism but if one group was perceived to be superior to another because of some finding somewhere than it could not only reinforce existing beliefs but spread new ones and could be potentially far reaching because of the perception that its science based.
    I agree to a certain extent, beauty isn't as subjective as some would like to think but its still more subjective and difficult to measure than something like intelligence. I haven't done a lot of reading on intelligence in a while but iirc intelligence is pretty static once you reach adulthood while beauty fades. An individuals IQ test results will likely differ across different trials but usually not by much.
     
  17. Cold Front Banned Banned

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    Modern life can certainly facilitate the increase of mutations by creating circumstances in which they thrive. We know, for example, that the father's age is an important factor in adding to the number of mutations passed on to the offspring, most notably in schizophrenia and autism. A father who is forty years old passes along three times the number of mutations - and remember almost all mutations are bad - as a twenty year old father, on average.

    So a society which has a lot more older fathers should see a lot more mutations than a society which doesn't, and this is indeed a bad thing.

    So why don't these mutations spread? In one phrase, differential breeding rates. Even when there is an increase in such characteristics as schizophrenia, the children who inherit these mutations don't eventually grow up and breed as frequently as those without those mutations because they lack fitness. Hence, there is a natural check on their increase.

    That doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned about this issue. In the long run, we're all dead. A society with a lot of older fathers still has a genuine problem, even if many of their offspring are evolutionary dead ends. An evolutionary dead end still costs money to society when he's alive.
     
  18. Cold Front Banned Banned

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    The problem with this thinking is that nature doesn't care what we value (unless we make it care).

    Consider a Narcissus. He values his beauty (and the beauty of his mate) over all else. He values the money he earns from a good career and doesn't want to waste it on a lot of children, but prefers spending it on clothes, cars, vacations, and the good life. So he and his wife have just one child.

    Meanwhile, a drunk and wastrel has five kids with the unemployed woman and drug addict he sleeps with.

    Who's more fit? Well, the drunk's reproductive success is certainly much, much higher. He has more successfully passed on his genes, while the Narcissus has not managed to even reproduce he and his wife.
     
  19. Cold Front Banned Banned

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    Does the folk notion of race matter?

    Yes, it's informative: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/folk-taxonomy-is-not-totally-useless/

    From the link:

     
  20. Cold Front Banned Banned

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    Mutations which don't affect reproductive fitness are meaningless in evolutionary terms.
     
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