NHL 23: Broken Sternums and Broken Dreams

Here is how the votes went,

Connor McDavid, Edmonton: 83 points
Aleksander Barkov, Florida: 46 points
Gustav Forsling, Florida: 8 points
Sergei Bobrovsky, Florida: 7 points
Zach Hyman, Edmonton: 3 points
Evan Bouchard, Edmonton: 2 points
Stuart Skinner, Edmonton: 2 points
Carter Verhaeghe, Florida: 2 points

I don’t get the love for Bob, he was good but nothing special. He and Skinner had dam near identical stats and Skinner was shit in almost the entire playoffs.
Saying Bob was Roy esque is fucking hilarious
I disagree with this take. Bob was actually REALLY fucking good and made some incredible saves all playoff long. While not Roy esque, you can't say he didn't play a huge part in the Panthers winning the Cup.

Did you notice that in the 3 bad games Bobrovsky had, the Panthers lost terribly? Did you notice that every game Bobrovsky was locked in, he had multiple shutouts and an unreal save percentage? Did you also notice the Panthers D collapsing half a dozen times in this series and putting Bobrovsky in a ton of breakaway situations?

Watch the game, not the stat sheet.
And the 3 games the Panthers lost horribly are BECAUSE Bobrovsky wasn't playing well and it cost his team wins. He also had "bad" games in every round.
Round 1 game 4 giving up 6 goals on 32 shots.
Round 2 game 1 giving up 4 goals on 28 shots.
Eastern Conference final game 3 he gives up 5 goals on 23 shots to lose in OT.
Finals Game 4 gives up 5 goals on 16 shots, yanked.
Finals game 5 gives up 4 goals on 23 shots.
Finals game 6 gives up 3 on 19 shots.


You can't do that and be the Conn Smythe winner. And don't try blaming it on the defense either. The Oilers went to game 7 in the finals with fucking Ceci and Nurse as a pair for much of the Playoffs.
 
Maybe its a "Whichever of Vanecek and Blackwood bounce back, you swap to me for Husso if he keeps sucking at the start of the season"

That would actually save the Wings an additional million or 2 in cap space later. Husso is a 4.75 million dollar guy vs Blackwood at 2.35 mil and Vanecek at 3.4 mil

if the wings wanted to dump a Dman and package a 2nd, I would have expected Chiariot or Holl to be the guys you needed to pay to get rid of. Walman is actually good.
NOBODY wants Holl.

This is uncalled for my man!
Very uncalled for, but funny.
 
Where'd he bring up MacKinnon?
His post history kinda makes his agenda plain.

After the may discussion where he insisted Mackinnon was a superior player and nobody agreeing, most of his June posts were just trashing Mcdavid every game. From "He gets calls because he is the media darling", to "Skinner for series MVP!" At this point, McDavid just broke a Gretzky record thought to be unbreakable and he's talking like it's no big deal and that Bob got robbed of the Smythe lol

Even Florida fans don't support Bob for the smythe. The supermajority on every hockey forum thinks Barkov was the clear #2, Bob distant 3rd
 
*shrugs

You are an island in that opinion.

The entire sports world is talking about how amazing it is to break a Gretzky scoring record in this era of goaltending and defense as opposed to the era of the odd man rush against a standup goalie with small pads twice a shift.

You like to focus on the last 2 games and ignore the fact that games 4 and 5 were also do or die games just as important to the Oilers continuing as games 6 and 7.

The stat line will be remembered as "Mcdavid scored 8 points in 4 do or die games to come within a 1 goal loss in the final game while breaking a record thought to be unbreakable against better competition".

Mcdavid is already rightfully thought of by most to be the 5th player on the NHL mount Rushmore best ever alongside Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux. As much as you try to push the idea that he is a Marcel Dionne, nobody is going to buy it and history won't look at it that way.

Breaking a Gretzky record is huge. No one is going to look into the points per game etc in about 2 years time.

I think it's way too early to be talking Mt Rushmore for McDavid.
 
His post history kinda makes his agenda plain.

After the may discussion where he insisted Mackinnon was a superior player and nobody agreeing, most of his June posts were just trashing Mcdavid every game. From "He gets calls because he is the media darling", to "Skinner for series MVP!" At this point, McDavid just broke a Gretzky record thought to be unbreakable and he's talking like it's no big deal and that Bob got robbed of the Smythe lol

Even Florida fans don't support Bob for the smythe. The supermajority on every hockey forum thinks Barkov was the clear #2, Bob distant 3rd

I've said previously I prefer MacKinnon over McDavid. I totally get what McDavid brings, just a style preeference. McDavid just makes stuff look too easy lol

Another thing against Bob is that goalies are handicapped with Conn Smythe. It's widely accepted that your goalie has to be on to win the Cup. So they literally have to stand on their head, behind a anemic defence to win the Conn Smythe. If the Oilers had won and Skinner was keeping the opponents to 1-2 goals a game, he'd be in with a shout of the Conn Smythe just because he has to put up with Nurse in front of him
 
I disagree with this take. Bob was actually REALLY fucking good and made some incredible saves all playoff long. While not Roy esque, you can't say he didn't play a huge part in the Panthers winning the Cup.


And the 3 games the Panthers lost horribly are BECAUSE Bobrovsky wasn't playing well and it cost his team wins. He also had "bad" games in every round.
Round 1 game 4 giving up 6 goals on 32 shots.
Round 2 game 1 giving up 4 goals on 28 shots.
Eastern Conference final game 3 he gives up 5 goals on 23 shots to lose in OT.
Finals Game 4 gives up 5 goals on 16 shots, yanked.
Finals game 5 gives up 4 goals on 23 shots.
Finals game 6 gives up 3 on 19 shots.


You can't do that and be the Conn Smythe winner. And don't try blaming it on the defense either. The Oilers went to game 7 in the finals with fucking Ceci and Nurse as a pair for much of the Playoffs.
I should clarify that Bobrovsky being Roy-esque was referring to a few saves. Not his overall playoff performance.

I get those points you mention, also. I was basically stating that when Bobrovsky played poorly, it was always a loss for the Panthers, whereas when McDavid played poorly, the Oilers won in spite of that. So by definition, Bobrovsky was probably overall more valuable than McDavid was.
 
I should clarify that Bobrovsky being Roy-esque was referring to a few saves. Not his overall playoff performance.

I get those points you mention, also. I was basically stating that when Bobrovsky played poorly, it was always a loss for the Panthers, whereas when McDavid played poorly, the Oilers won in spite of that. So by definition, Bobrovsky was probably overall more valuable than McDavid was.

But that's the case with any sport with a goalie. If the goalie plays bad, you tend to lose. It's 1 goalie vs 20 skaters that can pick up the slack. My comment before about goalies being handicapped in Conn Smythe (and individual awards in general). There's a expectation that you have to play well. Hasek won those individual awards because, well look at the rest of the team. He had to stand on his head just to give his team a shot at winning 1-0 off a garbage goal.

Bob played well, but for Florida, I would've gone with Barkov personally. But that's just my view.
 
Not without rings, that's for sure. When you're at that level, all that matters is rings.

I'm on the fence. It'll get him over thee line for sure. He he played on total stinkers and still putt up 100 a year, he gets credit.

I don't want to put it all on championships but it definitely does count for something. In saying that, there's almost 0 all time greats in sports without a championship
 
Breaking a Gretzky record is huge. No one is going to look into the points per game etc in about 2 years time.

I think it's way too early to be talking Mt Rushmore for McDavid.
Maybe its too early. But his resume has already surpassed a lot of folks who generally rank 5th to 20th all time at age 27

He's already in the top 10 forwards all time, doing laps around the Yzerman's and Sakic's, and 1 or 2 more years like this will have him unquestioningly ahead of the Jagr's, Beliveau's, Richard's, Crosby's, Ovechkin's and Hull's

He has finished 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd in scoring. You can look up the list of players who have more scoring titles than him, but I can save you the time and just say its Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux. The thing is, had the covid years not been shortened, it would look even more impressive. The year he had 105 points in 56 games, folks said it was a fluke and he would never have been able to keep that 153 point pace over a full season. And then he goes and does it shortly after. His statlines read year after year like he's an 80's superstar playing against standup goalies with small leather pads and odd man rushes every shift. Except he is beating modern goalies with huge pads and defensive systems

The list of players who have won the hart Trophy 3 times is also exceedingly small, let alone 4 pearson/ted Lindsay trophies(As voted by the players). Gretzky holds the record with 5, McDavid is tied with lemieux for 2nd most pearsons with 4. the 3 time winners of the pearson are Jagr, Crosby, Ovechkin and lafleur

Barring a catastrophic interruption to an expected aging curve for an all-time great player, he's going to crack it. He's still in his prime
 
I don't want to put it all on championships but it definitely does count for something. In saying that, there's almost 0 all time greats in sports without a championship
Exactly. They'll still get all the praise in the world, but if you want to be in the GOAT talks, you best have rings.
 
Not without rings, that's for sure. When you're at that level, all that matters is rings.
Ray Bourque was universally regarded as one of the top 3 defensemen of all time before he got that hail mary cup with Colorado. He carried some mediocre Bruins team on his back to the finals twice and had the misfortune of running into the 80's oilers twice. Nobody held it against him because his personal play was elite and he carried those teams further than they should have gone.

The guys who get flak for not winning are the Joe Thornton's and Marcel Dionne's because despite their personal awards, they were predictable and played like shit when it counted. Yzerman and Ovechkin used to get that treatment until they finally won them at ages 32 and 33 and then it all went away
 
Ray Bourque was universally regarded as one of the top 3 defensemen of all time before he got that hail mary cup with Colorado. He carried some mediocre Bruins team on his back to the finals twice and had the misfortune of running into the 80's oilers twice. Nobody held it against him because his personal play was elite and he carried those teams further than they should have gone.
He's a defenseman, so even with the cup, he'll never be in the conversation with Gretsky and Lemieux. He's in "best defensemen" conversations. Not GOAT conversations, and even if he is, he's getting like 1% of the vote, if that.
The guys who get flak for not winning are the Joe Thornton's and Marcel Dionne's because despite their personal awards, they were predictable and played like shit when it counted. Yzerman and Ovechkin used to get that treatment until they finally won them at ages 32 and 33 and then it all went away
Case in point. Those guys are considered leaders, because they're forwards who lead. Hard to lead from the blue line. Not that it can't be done, as Bobby Orr(and a select few others) can attest to, but he's also part of a legendary play in the playoffs. Nobody is mistaking him for Gretzky, though. It's a very small group at the very tippy top of those GOAT conversations.
 
He's a defenseman, so even with the cup, he'll never be in the conversation with Gretsky and Lemieux. He's in "best defensemen" conversations. Not GOAT conversations, and even if he is, he's getting like 1% of the vote, if that.

Case in point. Those guys are considered leaders, because they're forwards who lead. Hard to lead from the blue line. Not that it can't be done, as Bobby Orr(and a select few others) can attest to, but he's also part of a legendary play in the playoffs. Nobody is mistaking him for Gretzky, though. It's a very small group at the very tippy top of those GOAT conversations.
Lemieux is usually ranked 3rd or 4th of the big 4. Bobby Orr 2nd, so I'd say it's possible for a dman, just unlikely.

And yeah, nobody is ever catching Gretzky. He was scoring 200 points when the next best was scoring 130 and he was consistent. Calling it a "big 4" is usually just a formality I've fallen into.

But I think it's absolutely possible for mcdavid to turn it into a big 5 and he's already close. He's surpassed a lot of top players already who have cups.
 
Exactly. They'll still get all the praise in the world, but if you want to be in the GOAT talks, you best have rings.

Yeah. The best find a way. Unless the bottom drops out of the organisation (won't rule it out in Edmonton) he'll find a way. Gretzky and Jordan did. Lebron found a whole new team to get a ring lol.
 
But I think it's absolutely possible for mcdavid to turn it into a big 5 and he's already close. He's surpassed a lot of top players already who have cups.
When all is said and done, nobody remembers shit but the cups.

On paper, he's already there. However, when you get down to it, the only ones remembered and held in such high esteem, are champions. Who are the guys in the NHL who never one a cup, that are even in that conversation? I can't think of a damn one.
 
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