Ngannou v Lesnar

[Dana's Moonface]

Brocks fear of striking is exaggerated somewhat

He got legit brutalised vs Cain and I believe the only fight he had a fear of getting hit was vs Reem

Hunt and Carwin were two of the hardest hitting guys ever and Brock survived them

I'm not saying Brock is some all time great. However, he gets a little underrated

The Brock from UFC 100 would beat the shit.out of Francis imo

 

[Koro]

When did Francis become an elite Kicker?

Ngannou doesn't need to be an elite kicker to beat the crap out of Lesnar.

 

[boss429]

Ngannou doesn't need to be an elite kicker to beat the crap out of Lesnar.

No but he would need to be a multi faceted extremely strong striker with high level TD defence to avoid having Brock beat the crap out of him when he fails to land a perfect punch in the 1 second window available as Brock bull rushes him with an explosive power double.

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure he's none of those things except maybe the extremely strong part. This doesn't bode well for him in this potential match up.

 

[johncola]

Not overly surprising really since Francis has proven to be defenceless on the ground against a wrestler who took him down at will while having no where near as explosive takedowns as Brock did.

What's more surprising is people confusing getting kicked in the Liver and clipped in the temple (both of which cause the same involuntary reaction in any human being) with having a glass jaw despite having beaten 2 proven knockout artists who both hit him with solid shots.

It's far more likely the pre devastating and potentially deadly disease Brock gets Francis to the ground with his explosive bullrush takedown and renders him defenceless than it is Francis catches him with a perfect shot coming in in the 2 second window he would have to do so 9 out of 10 times.

Francis is not Uberreem with incredible strength and takedown defence to go along with his elite multi faceted striking arsenal.

I think you're overrating Brock and underrating Francis.

Francis wasn't defenceless against Stipe; he survived the full 25 by somewhat limiting the damage. He was very hard to take down and hold down. Stipe failed most of his takedown attempts. And I think Stipe is a better takedown artist than Brock just because Brock can't set up his shots with strikes. The "bullrush takedowns" you're talking are his only option without being able to set up his shots. And they won't have a high success rate.

I've never doubted Brock's chin, and think he has a great chin. I'm not even 100% certain we've seen him rocked.

I haven't had enough evidence to believe the diverticulitis has significantly affected his performances in the cage. He looks like the same guy, and I think the illness was used as an excuse. I'm sure it affected his life outside the cage, but not his ability inside the cage.

Francis has very good takedown defense, and it's improving all the time. It'd be better now than it was for the Stipe fight. He'd beat Stipe in a rematch. And yes, he's extremely strong.

edit: I forgot, I already made another post ITT regarding why I think Francis beats Brock easily: https://forums.sherdog.com/posts/158389309/

 

[boss429]

I think you're overrating Brock and underrating Francis.

Francis wasn't defenceless against Stipe; he survived the full 25 by somewhat limiting the damage. He was very hard to take down and hold down. Stipe failed most of his takedown attempts. And I think Stipe is a better takedown artist than Brock just because Brock can't set up his shots with strikes. The "bullrush takedowns" you're talking are his only option without being able to set up his shots. And they won't have a high success rate.

I've never doubted Brock's chin, and think he has a great chin. I'm not even 100% certain we've seen him rocked.

I haven't had enough evidence to believe the diverticulitis has significantly affected his performances in the cage. He looks like the same guy, and I think the illness was used as an excuse. I'm sure it affected his life outside the cage, but not his ability inside the cage.

Francis has very good takedown defense, and it's improving all the time. It'd be better now than it was for the Stipe fight. He'd beat Stipe in a rematch. And yes, he's extremely strong.

edit: I forgot, I already made another post ITT regarding why I think Francis beats Brock easily: https://forums.sherdog.com/posts/158389309/

I disagree but that was well put and reasonable.

I put so much confidence in my believe of his ability to bull rush Francis because unlike what you said the evidence shows he had a very high success rate with this, I can only recall Overeem being able to avoid it completely and most of his opponents where on the ground within seconds, including skilled grapplers like Cain, Herring and Mir.

We really haven't seen any evidence of Francis having improved TDD because if I recall correctly we haven't seen anyone shoot on him since Stipe as all his fights have been quick KOs with the exception of the Lewis loss.

Basically both guys have one path to victory and personally if I had to bet my money would be on Brock being able to implement his more often than not and also has better odds of surviving Francis' than vice versa.

Unfortunately this will always be purely speculative though and we'll never find out for sure.

 

[spinup]

We really haven't seen any evidence of Francis having improved TDD because if I recall correctly we haven't seen anyone shoot on him since Stipe as all his fights have been quick KOs with the exception of the Lewis loss.

Cain attempted one, he got clipped and finished on the ground.
Blaydes attempted two: one was easily defended, the second after he was knocked down didn't have more success.

They are the 2 most prolific TD artists in UFC HW history.

 

[boss429]

Cain attempted one, he got clipped and finished on the ground.
Blaydes attempted two: one was easily defended, the second after he was knocked down didn't have more success.

They are the 2 most prolific TD artists in UFC HW history.

Cain who had fought once in the 5 years prior and was a slow moving shell of his former self and I don't think we can call Blaydes "one of the most prolific TD artists in UFC HW history since he is largely unproven against top competition.

Neither has the explosive speed and raw power Brock used for his takedowns either but I recant my previous comment about nobody trying since Stipe as you've proven that to be incorrect. The Blaydes rematch is actually the only 1 of his fights I've never seen and Cains attempt, if thats what it was, was so slow and half assed I didn't consider it worth mentioning.

 

[Hirashin]

Lesnar has been cleaning up lately, lost a couple of pounds.
Book it Sean!

 

[spinup]

I don't think we can call Blaydes "one of the most prolific TD artists in UFC HW history since he is largely unproven against top competition.

It's a fact not an opinion: Blaydes has by far the most TDs landed in UFC HW history, and Cain is second.

 

[boss429]

It's a fact not an opinion: Blaydes has by far the most TDs landed in UFC HW history, and Cain is second.

It maybe a statistical fact but context matters and he wasn't raking up those numbers against top competition. It's kind of like when Goldie said somebody, I can't recall who but it was a top 5er, had the 2nd best TDD in the MW division. When Rogan asked who was number 1 (turned out to be Brad Tavarese, Goldie laughed and said no wonder I couldn't remember "no disrecpect to Brad Tavarese" because he was doing it against guys ranked outside the top 15 so the stat was basically meaningless.

Plus that's not really a great thing because it implies he isn't finishing them once they are on the ground and they are getting back up forcing him to take them down again.

 

[Ulti1]

Prime Lesnar wins it 7 out of 10. Punchers chance for ngannou

 

[Huligani]

Kind of like this.

Brock would get caught and KO'd on the way in. Cain is better than Brock in every way (even here) and we all saw what happened. The only people who can beat Ngannou are those who set up their takedowns extremely well with strikes, and are also able to make Ngannou concerned about the striking. Brock is not one of those guys.

 

[PalmStrike]

So Francis is a better striker tha Ubereem now?

This place...lol

 

[Mammothman]

2019 Ngannou murders any version of Brock, even UFC 100 Brock

 

[spinup]

So Francis is a better striker tha Ubereem now?

This place...lol

You damn right, he is.

 

[Mammothman]

Kind of like this.

Brock would get caught and KO'd on the way in. Cain is better than Brock in every way (even here) and we all saw what happened. The only people who can beat Ngannou are those who set up their takedowns extremely well with strikes, and are also able to make Ngannou concerned about the striking. Brock is not one of those guys.

I don't think its fair using Cain in this argument, he was a shadow of his former self when he fought Ngannou and arguably the HW GOAT performance wise when he fought Lesnar. Also MMA math lol

 

[spinup]

I don't think its fair using Cain in this argument, he was a shadow of his former self when he fought Ngannou

Because he suddeny forgot how to wrestle?
I get the "too old" argument for strikers, their speed and reflexes fade, but here in that particular sequence of action, what would Brock do better?

 

[Mammothman]

Because he suddeny forgot how to wrestle?
I get the "too old" argument for strikers, their speed and reflexes fade, but here in that particular sequence of action, what would Brock do better?

I never said I disagree, Brock gets destroyed but they both fought a very different Cain, also Cain is not only a pure wrestler he is also a decent striker/kicker

 

[Grenades]

You're right, he just goes directly to sleep unlike Brock who ate bombs to the chin without ever being KOed but reacted the same way every human being in the world does to getting punched in the temple and kicked in the liver since these are involuntary reactions to the equilibrium and central nervous system.

Hmmm...Stipe has as many Championship wins as Brock’s total wins. Let’s not compare an elite HW vs a flash in the pan.

 

[TR1]

Prime Brock being the guy who went 1-1 with Mir, and looked terrible vs Carwin?