"new" moves or guards that supposedly "changed" the game..

wildcard_seven said:
not denying it's effective, but I find dlr guard a little weird. Just me, but I think it is less a fundamental piece of jj than a trend with a broader appeal than rubber or x-guard. Some of these trends work at higher levels...rubber-Schembri, X-guard-Marcelo, and so people think they are "teh key"; but in truth, most of these are add-ons rather than fundamental pieces of the game.

I say Gordo. I don't think you can really have a solid game without some threat from bottom half-guard other than desperately trying to get your full guard back, and the situation is so common.
Click to expand...

De la Riva did a lot more than just the DLR guard (but the dlr guard is still a LOT more applicable and widespread than x-guard or rubber guard, especially in gi). Everyone uses dlr guard, at least a little.

But other than that, dlr completely revolutionized the open guard game. When he was coming up it was all about the closed guard game. No one was playing open guard like he was. He brought that whole new facet of the game to the forefront of the game.
 
The X guard has improved my butterfly and half guard game a lot. I like going for hook sweeps, and I like playing half butterfly a lot, and after reading marcelo's book, and drilling x guard entries, I've been finding myself there a lot. Sweeps are pretty easy from X guard, and it's a bitch to fight out of for the guy on top. I'm a late comer to the x guard game, as I know Aesopian and other people were talking about it years ago, but it's really improved my sweeping options from butterfly and half.
 
Eddie Bravo and Ryan Hall are my BJJ heroes.
 
What is the Marcelo half guard pass?
 
One thing that you have got to admit is that you don't see alot of the funky stuff such as what Bravo teaches, Ryan etc at the highest of the high level competition.

Then again maybe those guys haven't had time yet to get to that level, perhaps they are just on the way up.

The problem I am seeing is that some of these guys concentrate so hard on these new funky guards and stuff that they neglect the basics. Especially the people who concentrating on the guards that need insane flexibility.

I wouldn't catogorise the DLR guard as one of the new funky guards, I think it is important to many open guard players. The x guard or at least some elements of it are entering the mainstream.
 
While I agree that Gordo is far more influential currently I believe the jury is still out on guys like Garcia and Bravo. Give it a few more years and see. I know that though I don't see a lot of x-guard or rubber guard in blackbelt matches I see currently a lot of guys working it coming up the ranks. When these guys that learned jiu-jitsu by watching Marcelo since they where whites finally get to black belt level, then we will see.
 
Samurai Jack said:
yeah, but Ive read somewhere that some student of Rolls found an old Judo book and "stole" triangle from it.
Click to expand...

The way I heard it from Matt Thornton(a Machado black), Rolls didn't invent the triangle choke, but re-discovered it in an old Kosen Judo manual. Apparently Maeda neglected to cover it when he taught the original Gracie students, or perhaps he himself was unaware of it being a Kodokan student?

Most, if not all of the techniques we generally think of as being BJJ-specifc existed in one form or another way back in the day, in the Kosen Judo schools who never gravitated away from the ground game.

Bottom line to me is, if it's just being "invented" right now, chances are that it's not going to be something that revolutionizes the whole sport and becomes a garden-variety, high-percentage move. Grappling is an intuitive thing, it's not nearly as intricate and complex as we sometimes make it out to be. If it's high-percentage, chances are it's already been stumbled upon in the past.

Ironically, I remember reading an old Judo book that touched on waxing and waning in popularity of certain techniques.

In Judo there is a core group of throws that are always there, the bread-and-butter throws that just plain work. Then there are others that cycle between obscurity and popularity, because when they are uncommon, few people train to defend against them. When someone dusts them off and masters one of those throws, they can be very successful in competition, and inspire other judokas to copy their moves thinking this is the new hot thing, the unstoppable technique that will bring certain victory.

But with more exposure and an increased chance of having to defend those moves comes more incentive to train how to defend it, and soon the hot throw isn't so hot anymore, and the reason it was obscure in the first place becomes obvious - it wasn't a high-percentage technique to begin with. And so it is again relegated to relatively little use....until people forget about it.
 
Darwinist said:
Bottom line to me is, if it's just being "invented" right now, chances are that it's not going to be something that revolutionizes the whole sport and becomes a garden-variety, high-percentage move. Grappling is an intuitive thing, it's not nearly as intricate and complex as we sometimes make it out to be. If it's high-percentage, chances are it's already been stumbled upon in the past.

Ironically, I remember reading an old Judo book that touched on waxing and waning in popularity of certain techniques.

In Judo there is a core group of throws that are always there, the bread-and-butter throws that just plain work. Then there are others that cycle between obscurity and popularity, because when they are uncommon, few people train to defend against them. When someone dusts them off and masters one of those throws, they can be very successful in competition, and inspire other judokas to copy their moves thinking this is the new hot thing, the unstoppable technique that will bring certain victory.

But with more exposure and an increased chance of having to defend those moves comes more incentive to train how to defend it, and soon the hot throw isn't so hot anymore, and the reason it was obscure in the first place becomes obvious - it wasn't a high-percentage technique to begin with. And so it is again relegated to relatively little use....until people forget about it.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head. "Innovative" techniques are only "game-changers" until they become commonplace and everyone knows to look out for them. Solid mastery of fundimentals is what wins tournements.
 
Darwinist said:
The way I heard it from Matt Thornton(a Machado black), Rolls didn't invent the triangle choke, but re-discovered it in an old Kosen Judo manual. Apparently Maeda neglected to cover it when he taught the original Gracie students, or perhaps he himself was unaware of it being a Kodokan student?

Most, if not all of the techniques we generally think of as being BJJ-specifc existed in one form or another way back in the day, in the Kosen Judo schools who never gravitated away from the ground game.

Bottom line to me is, if it's just being "invented" right now, chances are that it's not going to be something that revolutionizes the whole sport and becomes a garden-variety, high-percentage move. Grappling is an intuitive thing, it's not nearly as intricate and complex as we sometimes make it out to be. If it's high-percentage, chances are it's already been stumbled upon in the past.

Ironically, I remember reading an old Judo book that touched on waxing and waning in popularity of certain techniques.

In Judo there is a core group of throws that are always there, the bread-and-butter throws that just plain work. Then there are others that cycle between obscurity and popularity, because when they are uncommon, few people train to defend against them. When someone dusts them off and masters one of those throws, they can be very successful in competition, and inspire other judokas to copy their moves thinking this is the new hot thing, the unstoppable technique that will bring certain victory.

But with more exposure and an increased chance of having to defend those moves comes more incentive to train how to defend it, and soon the hot throw isn't so hot anymore, and the reason it was obscure in the first place becomes obvious - it wasn't a high-percentage technique to begin with. And so it is again relegated to relatively little use....until people forget about it.
Click to expand...

Actually the triangle choke has always been part of judo mainstream (sankaku jime), you can find it mentioned in tournament wins as far back as you want to go, and in mainstream texts like "Dynamic Judo" which everybody had. What the Gracies did was perfect the setup ... ie getting into position to use it. The choke itself has been around from long before the Gracies, long before Kano, and probably long before even the medieval European manuscripts that show drawings of it. Making an art form out of putting it on was what the Gracies added.

Query about the addition of leglocks changing the game: when were they not part of the game? For instance, they were in sambo from day one, and my understanding was that they were in BJJ from very early as well, and definitely long before the modern submission grappling tournaments :confused:
 
georgejjr said:
Actually the triangle choke has always been part of judo mainstream (sankaku jime), you can find it mentioned in tournament wins as far back as you want to go, and in mainstream texts like "Dynamic Judo" which everybody had. What the Gracies did was perfect the setup ... ie getting into position to use it. The choke itself has been around from long before the Gracies, long before Kano, and probably long before even the medieval European manuscripts that show drawings of it. Making an art form out of putting it on was what the Gracies added.

Query about the addition of leglocks changing the game: when were they not part of the game? For instance, they were in sambo from day one, and my understanding was that they were in BJJ from very early as well, and definitely long before the modern submission grappling tournaments :confused:
Click to expand...

I believe most credit Rolls with integrating wrestling, leglocks and developing the open guard and modified techniques for it into use in BJJ.
 
Many of you don't know how Rolls was such a pioneer, specially on "open guard".
I like Garcia, he's very smooth and Bravo has tuned up the "rubber guard", as it did existed before.
 
yup, they are nothing compared to gordo

they created a style very good for their abilities and bodies, but i don't really see 2 heavyweighs using their guards
 
georgejjr said:
Actually the triangle choke has always been part of judo mainstream (sankaku jime), you can find it mentioned in tournament wins as far back as you want to go, and in mainstream texts like "Dynamic Judo" which everybody had. What the Gracies did was perfect the setup ... ie getting into position to use it. The choke itself has been around from long before the Gracies, long before Kano, and probably long before even the medieval European manuscripts that show drawings of it. Making an art form out of putting it on was what the Gracies added.
Click to expand...

You are right, sakaku jime has been around for a long long time. But judokas are far more likely to be familiar with the reverse version, applied to a turtling opponent. I know judo guys who are quite deadly with the reverse triangle, and are in fact far more capable of applying it than most BJJers, but they suck at applying it from the guard, because they spend relatively little time in competition or practice on their back.

Depends on whether you view the triangle as one technique no matter where it is applied from, or the guard, reverse, and mount triangle as seperate techniques IMO.
 
Bjj is personal.. a lot of guards that are used are body and game specific.

I play a lot of inverted guard - but if i try to teach it to someone else.. they never use it.

and i cant help but use it.. ever time im playing open guard i almost always go inverted because it nullifies the pass and lets me attack.

Inverted guard, X Guard, DLR guard, RDLR guard, Cross Guard, Rubber Guard, Z guard, Half Guard, Leglock guard, octopus guard,

It used to just be full guard - or no guard.
 
New is in the setup. Even the guys pimping "New," "revolutionary," etc, admit the move itself has existed beforehand.

Gogoplata's been around. It's the setup that makes it new and fancy.
 
Darwinist said:
You are right, sakaku jime has been around for a long long time. But judokas are far more likely to be familiar with the reverse version, applied to a turtling opponent. I know judo guys who are quite deadly with the reverse triangle, and are in fact far more capable of applying it than most BJJers, but they suck at applying it from the guard, because they spend relatively little time in competition or practice on their back.

Depends on whether you view the triangle as one technique no matter where it is applied from, or the guard, reverse, and mount triangle as seperate techniques IMO.
Click to expand...

I agree in terms of modern (post 1990) judo, because of the quick standup rule. Prior to 1980 sankaku from guard (not that there was a name for guard in judo circles) was more common, simply because matches could go for many minutes on the ground (and matches were 15 minutes back then, not 5 as it is today), and that's the version you'll find in old judo texts.

However, as far as I know very few people in judo (if any) worked on the setup of sankaku to any great extent, it was more a move that was used if your opponent did something stupid (ie stretch out a hand from within guard - basically a hard to miss opportunity) rather than something that was scientifically setup. Same thing for guard work in old judo. It existed, and there were a few basic sweeps, but it was mainly something you used to hold off your attacker until he got tired (mate wasn't called quickly back then) and then escaped. I think gyaku ude gurami (the kimura) was the only common lock applied from the guard in old judo.

To cut off the obvious protests: yes, there were exceptions. Neil Adams (British world champion in 1981) had a very rich ground repetoire, and won most of his world championship matches with submissions. Kimura seemed to know his stuff on the ground too. But for the most part judo ground work was pretty quick and direct - throw to get into side control, and then either put on a groundhold or a submission. Curiously enough, one reason there's less of that now is because almost any throw gives you an ippon nowadays ... thirty years ago the throw had to really slam the person flat on the back to be awarded an ippon, and as mentioned, matches were 15 minutes. Made for a different judo game.

Old time judoka will tell you that getting into the olympics was the worst thing that ever happened to sport judo, because the IJF thought they could somehow make a spectator sport out of it :icon_cry2
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,236,658
Messages
55,432,496
Members
174,775
Latest member
kilgorevontrouty

Share this page

Back
Top