"new" moves or guards that supposedly "changed" the game..

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by blanko, Apr 7, 2008.

  1. blanko

    blanko Guest

    when talking about techniques guards i often hear people bringing up marcelo garcia and eddie bravo and how they "changed" the game. I hear about how people say that marcelo "brought back" or revolutionized the arm drag/x guard. How eddie bravo is "changing the game" with his rubber guard... But have they really influenced bjj/no gi? Five years is an eternety in jiu jitsu as far as black belts copying/understanding techniques go. HOw many guys who win in the mundials/adcc use the x guard or the armdrag like marcelo? How many guys who win in the mundials use the rubber guard like eddie bravo. I guess what i am tyring to say is while marcelo and eddie have done their share to advance jiu jitsu.. Compared to a guy like Gordo... Their influence isn't that great. Flame on
     
  2. Darwinist

    Darwinist Super Simian

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    I agree. These guys have wicked cool personal styles, but what they have perfected for themselves hasn't really crossed over to to any significant degree to BJJ players in general.

    What exactly did Gordo bring to the table? I
     
  3. hamoom

    hamoom Purple Belt

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    gordo brought half guard to the table
     
  4. Darwinist

    Darwinist Super Simian

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    aaaahh.....that's a BIG one.
     
  5. damit2hell

    damit2hell Guest

    you forgot to mention Eddie Bravo's impact with no-gi and rolling stoned ;)
     
  6. johil d'o

    johil d'o Thought Warrior

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    I agree with you.

    I've attended a lot of BJJ and no gi grappling tournaments over the past 5 years, including several Pan Ams, the Worlds in 2007, and Abu Dhabi in 2005. I don't think many top guys incorporate that stuff to a great degree.
     
  7. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Leglocks changed the game, fo sho.
     
  8. philthyjitsu

    philthyjitsu Orange Belt

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    its just trends. Humans are quick to follow whats "cool". Notice just how quiet the topic of rubberguard has become on forums, while before Bravos DVDs came out, things were buzzing on many of the forums. I think a majority of people soon saw that system, while really effective for some, does not translate well for others.


    I think people see these high level guys competition games, and suddenly think that it is a path they should take as a whole in training jiu jitsu. That these things are NEEDED to be complete.

    This has happened so much that a lot of people are amazed to death that Kron or Roger Gracie can win by something so simple as a collar choke, or an armbar from closed guard. The "simple" jiu jitsu has turned into a spectical of its own unintentionally.
     
  9. Dedicado

    Dedicado Machetero

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    Marcelo Garcia's half guard pass is a staple in my club. We idolize the guy, right or wrong.

    IMO Marc Laimon should be on the list of BJJ inovators, most especially when it comes to creating one of the world's most innovative clubs outside of the illustrious Gracie clan.

    When Lovato, Feitosa ,Bill Cooper and the Nogeira bros. can be found at his club training with browns and purples, it speaks to me about the openness he has created at his club.

    This information exchange is what drives and inspires the revolutions in BJJ.
    The sharing of techniques
     
  10. jasond

    jasond Purple Belt

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    No flames, blanko. I think you're dead on.
     
  11. anaconda

    anaconda Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

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    de la riva ftw.
     
  12. wildcard_seven

    wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    not denying it's effective, but I find dlr guard a little weird. Just me, but I think it is less a fundamental piece of jj than a trend with a broader appeal than rubber or x-guard. Some of these trends work at higher levels...rubber-Schembri, X-guard-Marcelo, and so people think they are "teh key"; but in truth, most of these are add-ons rather than fundamental pieces of the game.

    I say Gordo. I don't think you can really have a solid game without some threat from bottom half-guard other than desperately trying to get your full guard back, and the situation is so common.
     
  13. Throatpoker

    Throatpoker Black Belt

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    When European and American wrestlers were dominating Judokas in the late 1800's and early 1900's, Kano even added moves like the Fireman's Carry.
     
  14. blanko

    blanko Guest

    really? of the mundial/adcc champions.. what precentage relies on leg locks?
     
  15. Jimmy Cerra

    Jimmy Cerra Amateur Fighter

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    How many can afford NOT to know how to use leg locks? Fowler tapped Saulo with a leg lock in 2007 IIRC.
     
  16. Prokofievian

    Prokofievian Silver Belt

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    Eddie Bravo made the point of people not catching on to what Marcelo was doing as a possible source for his incredible success at ADCC.
     
  17. blanko

    blanko Guest

    i mean did leglocks truely change the game? or did it make guys more careful and sharpen up their defence?
     
  18. Jimmy Cerra

    Jimmy Cerra Amateur Fighter

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    Um, judoka and wrestlers were about even IIRC. (And the late 1800s were Kano's first generation of students. Do you mean 1910s and 1920s?) Anyway, he didn't adopt them to beat wrestlers. He may have read wrestling and sumo books, but he may have already known it and was seeking an additional perspective. The fireman's carry was in the older jujutsu styles that made up judo. See this thread for more information:

    http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19873
     
  19. Jimmy Cerra

    Jimmy Cerra Amateur Fighter

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    Doesn't that change the game? Changing a game isn't just a measure of what you add or remove, but how well you do it too. And there are many jiu jitsu fighters that are experts at attacking with leg locks now too.
     
  20. Tony Manifold

    Tony Manifold Brown Belt

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    Don't forget Eddie's impact on the half guard game as well especially for no gi and MMA.

    I am not as conversant with the history of elite BJJ competition as some so maybe this was being done before I saw it. But I remember back in the late 90's everyone was teaching an arm bar from the guard by securing the arm, posting a leg, swinging the hips out, bring the leg over the face, etc. Then one day my instructor game back from MO Smith's gym where He was helping Frank Shamrock train and he said, "check out how Frank's armbarring from the guard". He was hooking the far leg and just spinning, relying on speed and athleticism.

    Like I said, maybe at the mundials or something guys were already doing it but from a sub grappling and MMA point of view the idea of using attributes rather than 1,2,3, type technique changed the game.
     

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