Crime New Boeing 737 Max crash, Update: Boeing knew sensor didn't work prior to Lion Air crash

[Rod1]

Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to $9-an-hour engineers

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...llar9-an-hour-engineers/ar-AADzCXz?ocid=ientp

Some excerpts-

The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs.

Increasingly, the iconic American planemaker and its subcontractors have relied on temporary workers making as little as $9 an hour to develop and test software, often from countries lacking a deep background in aerospace -- notably India.

Boeing said the company did not rely on engineers from HCL and Cyient for the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, which has been linked to the Lion Air crash last October and the Ethiopian Airlines disaster in March. The Chicago-based planemaker also said it didn’t rely on either firm for another software issue disclosed after the crashes: a cockpit warning light that wasn’t working for most buyers

Recent simulator tests by the Federal Aviation Administration suggest the software issues on Boeing’s best-selling model run deeper. The company’s shares fell this week after the regulator found a further problem with a computer chip that experienced a lag in emergency response when it was overwhelmed with data.

Sales are another reason to send the work overseas. In exchange for an $11 billion order in 2005 from Air India, Boeing promised to invest $1.7 billion in Indian companies. That was a boon for HCL and other software developers from India, such as Cyient, whose engineers were widely used in computer-services industries but not yet prominent in aerospace.
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It's a good article and I suggest anyone at all interested in the fubar going on at Boeing right now read all of it. They have issues with their 787 Dreamliner as well under criminal investigation. The TLDR here tho is that Boeing in another example of questionable cost cutting, outsourced software engineering code writing to inexperienced and under-qualified Indian firms where workers made only 9 bucks an hour, in exchange for India placing large orders for their planes

@VivaRevolution

Of course you can outsource to India and pay less. It will suck, but you can do that.

Was the software even responsible? it seems to me it was a redundancy issue coupled with lack of pilot training.

The best software engineers in the world cant model real stuff with fake data and it MCAS relied on a single sensor which was prone to malfunction i dont see how it would had changed anything.

 

[JDragon]

Was the software even responsible? it seems to me it was a redundancy issue coupled with lack of pilot training.

The best software engineers in the world cant model real stuff with fake data and it MCAS relied on a single sensor which was prone to malfunction i dont see how it would had changed anything.

My comment was a bit unrelated and pertained to IT outsourcing in general.

 

[HockeyBjj]

Was the software even responsible? it seems to me it was a redundancy issue coupled with lack of pilot training.

The best software engineers in the world cant model real stuff with fake data and it MCAS relied on a single sensor which was prone to malfunction i dont see how it would had changed anything.

I would say the lack of redundancy on a critical system would indeed be the root cause of looking to isolate something, but there's a lot going on with this story. I'd encourage you to read through it if it interests you at all. Some bullet points:

Boeing was going to lose market share to Airbus due to some 10% more fuel efficient engines the A320 could fit, but the 737 could not

Being decided to mount those engines more forward and higher to give the legal ground clearance, creating an imbalanced aircraft that was prone to stalling

To counter this, Airbus created their MCAS software to automatically push the planes nose down and would override the pilot pulling back on the stick

The system ended up being 5 times more powerful than what they submitted to the FAA for clearance

Lots of other stuff with hiding new features, so that they could sell these planes to airlines claiming they could train each pilot in 3 hours or less without any simulator training

This auto nose down feature wasn't even mentioned in the trainings as even existing until the first crash

Now more details are coming out of Boeing's culture of hazy cost cutting, and FAA simply trusting them because they're Boeing.

 

[JDragon]

737 MAX non-passenger flight by Tui. Germany does not allow non-passenger flights.

 

[HockeyBjj]

737 MAX non-passenger flight by Tui. Germany does not allow non-passenger flights.

So they're starting more than just test flights again?

Wall Street Journal just published this damming story.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/regula...ency-after-first-boeing-max-crash-11564565521

FAA in its investigation into the first crash found that " the likelihood was high of a similar cockpit emergency within months" but "decided it was sufficient to inform pilots about the hazards of an onboard sensor malfunction that led to a flight-control system pushing down the plane’s nose."

They gave Boeing 10 months to actually fix the problem and figured the heads up to pilots until then was enough. The 2nd deadly crash occurred 5 months later.

 

[7437]

So they're starting more than just test flights again?

Wall Street Journal just published this damming story.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/regula...ency-after-first-boeing-max-crash-11564565521

FAA in its investigation into the first crash found that " the likelihood was high of a similar cockpit emergency within months" but "decided it was sufficient to inform pilots about the hazards of an onboard sensor malfunction that led to a flight-control system pushing down the plane’s nose."

They gave Boeing 10 months to actually fix the problem and figured the heads up to pilots until then was enough. The 2nd deadly crash occurred 5 months later.

Well that's the end of international credibility for flight safety licensing for the FAA

 

[JDragon]

So they're starting more than just test flights again?

Wall Street Journal just published this damming story.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/regula...ency-after-first-boeing-max-crash-11564565521

FAA in its investigation into the first crash found that " the likelihood was high of a similar cockpit emergency within months" but "decided it was sufficient to inform pilots about the hazards of an onboard sensor malfunction that led to a flight-control system pushing down the plane’s nose."

They gave Boeing 10 months to actually fix the problem and figured the heads up to pilots until then was enough. The 2nd deadly crash occurred 5 months later.

That's just crazy. I would expect this is not the first time something like that was done, but now shit hit the fan.

 

[Arkain2K]

The Boeing 737 Max was grounded after two deadly crashes. Now the company says it will suspend production of the troubled jet. Kris Van Cleave reports.

 

[HockeyBjj]

The Boeing 737 Max was grounded after two deadly crashes. Now the company says it will suspend production of the troubled jet. Kris Van Cleave reports.

Damn. That's big news. Til Boeing announced here the playbook was simply that their plane needed software bug fixing, give it a "few" months to work out with the FAA and airlines would be back to using the new and improved versions of the fuel efficient 787 maxes they ordered

Beoing stopping making them could mean major orders (aka contracts) unfulfilled as airlines fill the gap with airbuses rather than waiting on the beings to be delivered en masse once cleared

 

[hiphopnazi]

Learn to code India!

 

[sverre054]

Damn. That's big news. Til Boeing announced here the playbook was simply that their plane needed software bug fixing, give it a "few" months to work out with the FAA and airlines would be back to using the new and improved versions of the fuel efficient 787 maxes they ordered

Beoing stopping making them could mean major orders (aka contracts) unfulfilled as airlines fill the gap with airbuses rather than waiting on the beings to be delivered en masse once cleared

Big issue, is they are simply running out of room to store them. Every airport with any space has these things stacked up. The planes, then need special crews to maintain them. Boeing has sent out job offers to thousands of retired airline mechanics, trying to get the to relocate for 6 months to paces like Moses Lake, WA, or the dessert airports in CA. From what I've heard from some people in the know, is they have had the fixes ready to go for quite a while, but the FAA is waiting until t least next year to be very thorough, and in a way to teach Boeing a lesson, that they will no longer dictate planes certifications going forward.

All in all still a huge mess. The Boeing boards need to remove the remnants of the Mcdonald Douglas that remain, and have somehow used there influence over the years to drag down this great company, much like the did with Mcdonald Douglas. The engineers and innovators need to be put back in charge, not the money pushers. Move the headquarters back to Seattle, and engaged with your workforce.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Damn. That's big news. Til Boeing announced here the playbook was simply that their plane needed software bug fixing, give it a "few" months to work out with the FAA and airlines would be back to using the new and improved versions of the fuel efficient 787 maxes they ordered

Beoing stopping making them could mean major orders (aka contracts) unfulfilled as airlines fill the gap with airbuses rather than waiting on the beings to be delivered en masse once cleared

Not really a big deal.

They are cash strapped is all. Cheaper to shut down for a couple months until approved.

The real shit show will come if it is delayed past March. It will be a huge disaster permanently crippling Boeing, and the suppliers.

 

[sverre054]

https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merger-led-to-the-737-max-crisis/

Great article in what has happened to Boeing, since the Macdobdal Douglas people took over the board

 

[JDragon]

https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merger-led-to-the-737-max-crisis/

Great article in what has happened to Boeing, since the Macdobdal Douglas people took over the board

Great article, thanks

 

[jonharrison]

https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merger-led-to-the-737-max-crisis/

Great article in what has happened to Boeing, since the Macdobdal Douglas people took over the board

One thing I think the article glosses over is that the engineers, as well as the management, no longer come from an aviation background. I have several friends from college who work as engineers at Boeing. They are fundamentally of the belief that pilots should have zero input into the design of an aircraft. I offered several times to take them flying, to show my side of aviation, but that held no interest to them. It’s not a surprise, then, when engineers who feel pilots are merely lower educated button pushers, put systems in that they don’t put into the manual. They felt the machine was more reliable than the person in control.

 

[sverre054]

One thing I think the article glosses over is that the engineers, as well as the management, no longer come from an aviation background. I have several friends from college who work as engineers at Boeing. They are fundamentally of the belief that pilots should have zero input into the design of an aircraft. I offered several times to take them flying, to show my side of aviation, but that held no interest to them. It’s not a surprise, then, when engineers who feel pilots are merely lower educated button pushers, put systems in that they don’t put into the manual. They felt the machine was more reliable than the person in control.

Well they used to have management, engineering, and manufacturing all on the same building, or at least the same town. The new board quickly say to moving the headquarters away from Seattle to Chicago, as well as spread engineering and management across the country. They also immediately went to war with the machinist union, pitting the majority of the workforce against the managers. They have some major issues, outsourcing work to the lowest foreign bidders, building non union factories(for years all 787-9s built in non union South Carolina, had to be flown to the Union plant in Everett, WA plant, to fix massive mistakes made and shoddy workmanship. So what does Boeing then do??? Expand the South Carolina plants even more, and try to force workers to quit the union and move.) The board needs a major overhaul, and they need to worry more about quality, than stock holders returns. Which by the way the board did a massive stock buy back right before the 737max crisis, with there rainy day fund, to line the investor's pockets, which the board members massively profit from.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Big issue, is they are simply running out of room to store them. Every airport with any space has these things stacked up. The planes, then need special crews to maintain them. Boeing has sent out job offers to thousands of retired airline mechanics, trying to get the to relocate for 6 months to paces like Moses Lake, WA, or the dessert airports in CA. From what I've heard from some people in the know, is they have had the fixes ready to go for quite a while, but the FAA is waiting until t least next year to be very thorough, and in a way to teach Boeing a lesson, that they will no longer dictate planes certifications going forward.

All in all still a huge mess. The Boeing boards need to remove the remnants of the Mcdonald Douglas that remain, and have somehow used there influence over the years to drag down this great company, much like the did with Mcdonald Douglas. The engineers and innovators need to be put back in charge, not the money pushers. Move the headquarters back to Seattle, and engaged with your workforce.

Stan Deal, and Calhoun are not the answer.

They are more of the same. They come from the same GE tree as Mcnerney, and Muilenburg.

Nothing is going to change, and the next disaster will probably force a government bailout.

 

[JDragon]

Stan Deal, and Calhoun are not the answer.

They are more of the same. They come from the same GE tree as Mcnerney, and Muilenburg.

Nothing is going to change, and the next disaster will probably force a government bailout.

Airbus is, of course, getting illegal (per WTO ruling) state subsidies, but so is Boeing:


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...lt-state-tax-subsidy-for-boeing-idUSKCN1R923B

You could consider those an ongoing, continuous, preventive bailout.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Airbus is, of course, getting illegal (per WTO ruling) state subsidies, but so is Boeing:


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...lt-state-tax-subsidy-for-boeing-idUSKCN1R923B

You could consider those an ongoing, continuous, preventive bailout.

True, but welfare rats can never have enough government cheese.

 

[ocfightfan]

I don't think Viva has realized that if his world view were implemented he would not have a job.