1. Where did your likes go? Please Read This Thread »

New article gives alternative account of GJJ history

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Title Fight Productions, Aug 24, 2015.

  1. Title Fight Productions Steel Belt

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    28,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Down from day 1
  2. freaky Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2015
    Messages:
    6,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Inside Sherdog
    yes i always wondered how carlos learned bjj from Maeda when they spent such a short time together..3-4 years atmost.
     
  3. Wrestler160 Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,549
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    LA County
    There is quite a few rustled jimmies from some Gracie students on my FB lol. I've heard there is also a Torres Family that taught BJJ in Brazil but they also taught BJJ to poor people.
     
  4. Russky Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Messages:
    1,222
    Likes Received:
    167
    Fortunately we have video of the fight. You can see it yourself starting at 5:20. They stayed at the end of the ring and were never moved to the center.

    [YT]znksMXsR6mo[/YT]

    On the other hand the video proves that this fight was staged.
     
  5. Bunkai White Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2015
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    wait.. people actually believe things the gracie family says..
     
  6. kpoz12 The No Life King Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2007
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    Kimura, BC
    Ask f12 staple poster SBJ....
     
  7. monsieur_jj Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manila
    helio is too much of a jesus character to believe
     
  8. lts5025 "What the **** is a Dim Mack?"

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2007
    Messages:
    9,409
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've never believed any of these mythical Gracie stories. That's why I always liked Carlson despite his fractured relationship with BTT: no bullshit. He took his techniques into the ring and when he got old his students picked up the flag of BJJ and carried on. No nonsense about Gracie JJ being perfect.
     
  9. Shokushu Goukan Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    3,635
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    At the tentacle's edge
    So we are not to believe what the Gracies say, but believe these other people why? What proof are they bringing?

    Geo Omori was a japanese judoka that had gotten known as “the king of mixed martial arts” during the early years when vale-tudo was arriving to Brazil.
    - that term did not exist back then

    Back then, Geo said that Carlos Gracie – considered the creator of the BJJ system and the first to start the process that would make the Gracie family known world wide – was not instructed by Maeda, and if he actually was it happened for a short period of time.
    - which one is it, was he taught by him or just taught for a little while? A huge difference there if you claim any of this as fact

    Depending on who you ask, Helio was also defeated by Oswaldo.
    - um, okay , so who should I ask and believe?

    The Gracie tried to intimidate his opponent by bringing a coffin to the arena.
    - OMG the fake outrage I feel

    The only thing worse than the blind Gracie nuthuggers are the blind Gracie nut haters.
     
  10. Badger67 Taxidea taxus

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Messages:
    6,853
    Likes Received:
    331
    Location:
    Canada
    1.
    http://philosophycommons.typepad.com/the_grumpy_grappler/2014/06/deconstructing-the-gracie-mythology.html
    2.
    http://philosophycommons.typepad.com/the_grumpy_grappler/2014/06/deconstructing-the-gracie-mythology-part-2.html

    Even in the first few UFC's, they didn't bring in a lot of quality opponents (or even attempt to) as guys like Wallid, Gokor, Karelin were not invited (though karelin admits he refuses to engage in real fights). A good martial art with a lot of Marketing 101 is their legacy, and Rener is another capitalizing on this.
     
  11. Dogstarman Old man jiu jitsu

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    11,580
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    On the mats
    I don't have a problem with marketing. It's great how they got the hype going. Sure there were others at the time, but I don't think we would be doing bjj without the Gracies.

    Don't get me wrong, their marketing now a days is crazy, like when they say it's a win for gjj, when they don't get subbed but are on the bottom the whole time. Another one was when Royce lost to Hughes and they said it was a victory for gjj because gjj was used to beat Royce. That's nothing but crap.
     
  12. Matsukaze Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2014
    Messages:
    572
    Likes Received:
    0
    That Ken Shamrock guy was pretty a good catch wrestler/submission wrestler and in his prime when Royce beat him. Dan Severn was not a walk in the park either
     
  13. Steve08 American Fedor Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    20,200
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Ken was pretty good and enormously strong, but he was no Funaki or Suzuki.

    Severn was quite a legit win with his size and world-class wrestling experience, though.
     
  14. Badger67 Taxidea taxus

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Messages:
    6,853
    Likes Received:
    331
    Location:
    Canada
    ^ I agree with those, Especially Dogstarman's post, but there was a lot of guys not invited intentionally. And some of their marketing was shady tactics designed to inflate.
    I might not be doing jiu jitsu, but i'd be doing judo/sambo. And not all o the gracies followed this line of thinking like Rorion or Rener etc
    The idea Rickson is 500-0 , "Win for GJJ" , or "we didn't understand the rules".
     
  15. brendan raedy Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    720
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    therockbjj.com
    I think this stuff is super interesting, and I'm not defending the Gracies for their (alleged) misdeeds, but flaws aside, if it wasn't for Helio and Rorion the vast majority of us would still be wearing our doboks breaking boards, if we did martial arts at all.
     
  16. deadlizard cold blooded

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Messages:
    4,310
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are we back at this shit? Back then, we believed ninjitsu was the most deadly art and we had uncles that trained karate and dim mak some fools by touching them.

    UFC1 was real because it opened our eyes about what real fighting was about.

    Taking anything away from the Gracies about "picking the fighters" is just bullshit.
     
  17. SBJ Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2011
    Messages:
    2,084
    Likes Received:
    0
  18. A Muse of Fire Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    2,797
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    VA
    What makes you think it was staged?
     
  19. RTD1 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2013
    Messages:
    903
    Likes Received:
    0
    None of this is new to anyone who has read Choque. Carlos trained under Jacyntho Ferro (who was a Maeda student) for 2-3 years as a teenager, then around ten years later studied under Donato Pires Dos Reis for another year or two. In between, he and Helio read a lot of books, mostly ones by Irving Hancock and Yukio Tani. This is basically the origin of GJJ, and that early GJJ looks much more like TMA JJJ than what we know as BJJ today. Later the Gracie brothers trained with Geo Omori, Dudu, the Ono brothers, etc. and learned some actual grappling. But what we know as BJJ today was developed mainly by Carlson Gracie and his camp from the 1950's through the 1970's.
     
  20. Russky Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Messages:
    1,222
    Likes Received:
    167
    If you happen to know any judoka try fighting with him while jumping on one foot. Watch it from 1:30, that's total joke. Helio got zero standing experience; his moves are awkward, his posture is vulnerable and this have nothing to do with judo that he claims learning from Mitsuo Maeda.

    You can also watch Kimura vs. Helio. See how Kimura takes Helio down, passes guard, gets into pin and finishes. Now we see real fight and Helio gets what he deserves.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.