New age fitness too complex?

[ChickenBrother]

My favorite aphorism from sports is "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard." There's a message in there for both talented and untalented folks but also implied is what happens when talent works hard.

That said, I encourage my kids and won't set any ceilings. If the implied message above is true, I will let them come to that conclusion themselves.

 

[JimRussel]

My favorite aphorism from sports is "Hard work beats talent if talent doesn't work hard." There's a message in there for both talented and untalented folks but also implied is what happens when talent works hard.

That said, I encourage my kids and won't set any ceilings. If the implied message above is true, I will let them come to that conclusion themselves.

Give them PEDs lol.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Your kids are gonna quit as soon as they get uncomfortable or discouraged. You gave them an excuse. Great job dad. One day you guys can bond over how kind you were when you turned them into quitters.

That's the best someone with your attitude can hope for, dont sweat it.

Yeah man, I appreciate your sentiment in that string of exchanges over genetics vs hard work...but come on, obviously genetics is a big factor.

You get some 5'3 138 pound guy maxed out on his ~natural limit, he can work harder than anyone on the planet he won't ever play in the NFL or be a strongman competitor, or be an NBA player unless he's Muggsy Bogues (who obviously had top tier genetics athletically despite size).

It's not good to be a defeatist pussy, but at the same time even simple very achievable things like say benching 315 or deadlifting 500 pounds, let alone 600 pounds. Not everyone can achieve that naturally. Some people just have bad genetics or aren't built for specific things.

Israel Adesanya is the MW champion in the UFC. Do you think he could ever bench 3 plates natural? Could Khabib ever bench 3 plates natural? I don't think either of these guys necessarily could.

Jon Jones was "only" benching 315 with a bro spot for a single, while being clearly on steroids and being an elite athlete genetically. His arms/frame aren't built to be good at bench though. But he's also a guy who was probably ~240lbs bodyweight while doing it. So yeah I'm stating the obvious but the world isn't just rainbows and hope. Not everyone is going to run 4.4 or dunk a basketball no matter how hard they train.

 

[TerryMCLOOPS]

Yeah man, I appreciate your sentiment in that string of exchanges over genetics vs hard work...but come on, obviously genetics is a big factor.

You get some 5'3 138 pound guy maxed out on his ~natural limit, he can work harder than anyone on the planet he won't ever play in the NFL or be a strongman competitor, or be an NBA player unless he's Muggsy Bogues (who obviously had top tier genetics athletically despite size).

It's not good to be a defeatist pussy, but at the same time even simple very achievable things like say benching 315 or deadlifting 500 pounds, let alone 600 pounds. Not everyone can achieve that naturally. Some people just have bad genetics or aren't built for specific things.

Israel Adesanya is the MW champion in the UFC. Do you think he could ever bench 3 plates natural? Could Khabib ever bench 3 plates natural? I don't think either of these guys necessarily could.

Jon Jones was "only" benching 315 with a bro spot for a single, while being clearly on steroids and being an elite athlete genetically. His arms/frame aren't built to be good at bench though. But he's also a guy who was probably ~240lbs bodyweight while doing it. So yeah I'm stating the obvious but the world isn't just rainbows and hope. Not everyone is going to run 4.4 or dunk a basketball no matter how hard they train.

Dude I'm smaller than Izzy and I was benching 3 plates as an alcoholic sailor. What are you talking about.

 

[vision1]

Apparently people can only add <13% to their vertical in a lifetime of training which is why it's so useful in measuring athleticism or whatever you'd call it.

My vertical is terrible!

Lol mine is also terrible but there's no way that absolute value of 13% is true.

 

[TerryMCLOOPS]

Lol mine is also terrible but there's no way that absolute value of 13% is true.

Son you gotta go out there and give it your 13%!!

 

[No Skill Gap]

Dude I'm smaller than Izzy and I was benching 3 plates as an alcoholic sailor. What are you talking about.

Alright I'm not trying to go Mark Twain again with a long post but what are you talking about?

You were saying that anyone could look like Herschel Walker naturally. No they fucking can't lol. First off Walker is definitely on PEDs, imo. Secondly, whether he is or isn't it's undeniable he has top tier genetics. Dude ran 4.4 speed at 220 pounds and won a Heisman.

He looked like this ^ and crushed two cans in Strikeforce at age 48 and 49, pushing 49-50 by 2 months in each appearance. I mean like I was trying to say, I appreciate the sentiment and I don't like weak willed "soyboy" natty or not guys either. But this guy is natty? Yeah okay bro lol. Almost everyone in the NFL is on steroids it's virtually a fact, so a former NFL player who claims to only do push ups and looks like this at age 50 basically, natural? Ok.

Tangent, but the point is no you can't just work hard and achieve anything you want. Is that a message you want to tell a kid? No. But I assume we're not talking to 5-12 year olds here in this thread.

As for Izzy...I mean you think he can bench 315? Maybe I don't think it's impossible but I don't think he ever would in his life unless he dedicated himself to powerlifting full time and probably used steroids. Again, Jon Jones has ~30-40 pounds on him and is all but confirmed to be on steroids at the time of his 315 bench press with a bro spot, probably a 300-310 pound lift in actuality.



Now could Jones improve beyond that? Obviously he was powerlifting for like 6 months there or something, maybe a year. But I don't think Jon Jones genetically is ever going to become some fucking stud bencher. He will never bench 500 pounds in his life no matter what he does.

Kevin Durant couldn't do a single rep of 185lbs at the NBA combine. He probably never benched before or rarely, so could he do 185? I'm sure he could with training obviously. But is he ever going to bench 315? No, doubt it. So while you might say you're an alcoholic sailor, did you leave out the part where maybe you were 5'10 250lbs and trained powerlifting for years and are built to be good at bench genetically? Idk.

Didn't mean to write a long post, but again I agree with your sentiment I just disagree with you applying it to reality. People should strive to be the best they can be, yes. But that doesn't mean everyone can dunk a basketball or deadlift 700+ pounds or bench 4 plates one day, some people just can't get there...a lot of people.

 

[Phlog]

Lol mine is also terrible but there's no way that absolute value of 13% is true.

Hah, sorry my mistake the coach I heard talking about it said 30%

 

[Cole train]

That's retarded. My daughter knows she's good at running and climbing, if she doesn't succeed it's down to how hard she works at it or meeting someone better, not her base potential.

You keep believing you're gonna be president of the United States or an astronaut.

Usually guys who say genetics dont matter havent been involved in sports long enough.

We had a guy in mma gym who trained more than anyone yet he went something like 0-9 as an ammy before quitting. Just lacked athleticsm no speed or power

At the same time had a guy who trained 1-2 times a week and won 6 fights in a row (dont know whats going on nowadays).

My countrys best kickboxing coach ex ammy world champ says you can see in about 2 to 3 years who has it and who dont

 

[Robocok]

I can be champion of the world if I train hard enough!

 

[Cole train]

I can be champion of the world if I train hard enough!

RUDY

RUDY

RUDY

 

[TerryMCLOOPS]

Alright I'm not trying to go Mark Twain again with a long post but what are you talking about?

You were saying that anyone could look like Herschel Walker naturally. No they fucking can't lol. First off Walker is definitely on PEDs, imo. Secondly, whether he is or isn't it's undeniable he has top tier genetics. Dude ran 4.4 speed at 220 pounds and won a Heisman.

He looked like this ^ and crushed two cans in Strikeforce at age 48 and 49, pushing 49-50 by 2 months in each appearance. I mean like I was trying to say, I appreciate the sentiment and I don't like weak willed "soyboy" natty or not guys either. But this guy is natty? Yeah okay bro lol. Almost everyone in the NFL is on steroids it's virtually a fact, so a former NFL player who claims to only do push ups and looks like this at age 50 basically, natural? Ok.

Tangent, but the point is no you can't just work hard and achieve anything you want. Is that a message you want to tell a kid? No. But I assume we're not talking to 5-12 year olds here in this thread.

As for Izzy...I mean you think he can bench 315? Maybe I don't think it's impossible but I don't think he ever would in his life unless he dedicated himself to powerlifting full time and probably used steroids. Again, Jon Jones has ~30-40 pounds on him and is all but confirmed to be on steroids at the time of his 315 bench press with a bro spot, probably a 300-310 pound lift in actuality.



Now could Jones improve beyond that? Obviously he was powerlifting for like 6 months there or something, maybe a year. But I don't think Jon Jones genetically is ever going to become some fucking stud bencher. He will never bench 500 pounds in his life no matter what he does.

Kevin Durant couldn't do a single rep of 185lbs at the NBA combine. He probably never benched before or rarely, so could he do 185? I'm sure he could with training obviously. But is he ever going to bench 315? No, doubt it. So while you might say you're an alcoholic sailor, did you leave out the part where maybe you were 5'10 250lbs and trained powerlifting for years and are built to be good at bench genetically? Idk.

Didn't mean to write a long post, but again I agree with your sentiment I just disagree with you applying it to reality. People should strive to be the best they can be, yes. But that doesn't mean everyone can dunk a basketball or deadlift 700+ pounds or bench 4 plates one day, some people just can't get there...a lot of people.

@JimRussel hey three plates is basically unattainable for most people right?

My point, Mr. No skill gap, is that you obviously have no credibility to discuss athletics at a high level because you are talking about absolute hobbyist level shit as if it were elite. If you had any experience or education in athletics, you wouldn't be talking like that. So my point is, its safe to dismiss everything you're saying. It's like someone saying planes are impossible because you tried making a paper airplane and it crashed. You just don't know anything about this.

Btw I'm 6"1 I weighed about 210. You gotta get out there and see what people are doing, none of this stuff should seem out of reach for any of you. Believe what you want. Lifestyle and habits are everything. I'm not talking about winning a sports trophy. I'm talking about achieving athletic performance that most people, like all of you clowns, consider elite. Anyone can do that unless they have like a bone disorder or something obvious like that that makes training unsafe or unwise.

Who said that his success was because he trained everyday like most people never do even one day? If you dont believe people like that exist, youre always gonna wonder what's wrong with you. It's just your lifestyle.

 

[TerryMCLOOPS]

Alright I'm not trying to go Mark Twain again with a long post but what are you talking about?

You were saying that anyone could look like Herschel Walker naturally. No they fucking can't lol. First off Walker is definitely on PEDs, imo. Secondly, whether he is or isn't it's undeniable he has top tier genetics. Dude ran 4.4 speed at 220 pounds and won a Heisman.

He looked like this ^ and crushed two cans in Strikeforce at age 48 and 49, pushing 49-50 by 2 months in each appearance. I mean like I was trying to say, I appreciate the sentiment and I don't like weak willed "soyboy" natty or not guys either. But this guy is natty? Yeah okay bro lol. Almost everyone in the NFL is on steroids it's virtually a fact, so a former NFL player who claims to only do push ups and looks like this at age 50 basically, natural? Ok.

Tangent, but the point is no you can't just work hard and achieve anything you want. Is that a message you want to tell a kid? No. But I assume we're not talking to 5-12 year olds here in this thread.

As for Izzy...I mean you think he can bench 315? Maybe I don't think it's impossible but I don't think he ever would in his life unless he dedicated himself to powerlifting full time and probably used steroids. Again, Jon Jones has ~30-40 pounds on him and is all but confirmed to be on steroids at the time of his 315 bench press with a bro spot, probably a 300-310 pound lift in actuality.



Now could Jones improve beyond that? Obviously he was powerlifting for like 6 months there or something, maybe a year. But I don't think Jon Jones genetically is ever going to become some fucking stud bencher. He will never bench 500 pounds in his life no matter what he does.

Kevin Durant couldn't do a single rep of 185lbs at the NBA combine. He probably never benched before or rarely, so could he do 185? I'm sure he could with training obviously. But is he ever going to bench 315? No, doubt it. So while you might say you're an alcoholic sailor, did you leave out the part where maybe you were 5'10 250lbs and trained powerlifting for years and are built to be good at bench genetically? Idk.

Didn't mean to write a long post, but again I agree with your sentiment I just disagree with you applying it to reality. People should strive to be the best they can be, yes. But that doesn't mean everyone can dunk a basketball or deadlift 700+ pounds or bench 4 plates one day, some people just can't get there...a lot of people.

I never said soyboy. Thats something pussies call people to belittle them. You misunderstand what I'm saying.

 

[No Skill Gap]

@JimRussel hey three plates is basically unattainable for most people right?

My point, Mr. No skill gap, is that you obviously have no credibility to discuss athletics at a high level because you are talking about absolute hobbyist level shit as if it were elite. If you had any experience or education in athletics, you wouldn't be talking like that. So my point is, its safe to dismiss everything you're saying. It's like someone saying planes are impossible because you tried making a paper airplane and it crashed. You just don't know anything about this.

Btw I'm 6"1 I weighed about 210. You gotta get out there and see what people are doing, none of this stuff should seem out of reach for any of you. Believe what you want. Lifestyle and habits are everything. I'm not talking about winning a sports trophy. I'm talking about achieving athletic performance that most people, like all of you clowns, consider elite. Anyone can do that unless they have like a bone disorder or something obvious like that that makes training unsafe or unwise.

Listen bro all I said was I appreciate the sentiment but it's bullshit. Which it is. If you want to live in some fantasy land where everyone in the world can believe, achieve, succeed...then whatever.

I never said benching 315 was some Herculean feat of strength. I'm simply saying not everyone can do it. You think I'm wrong for saying that? Okay, let's look at Richard Hawthrone that powerlifter that deadlifts 600+ and squats over 500 as a 132 pounder. He benches 308.6 according to the numbers I see, at least while he could achieve those numbers.

Why doesn't he bench more? Does he not train hard enough? Does he not believe in himself?

Obviously that's a small guy that I'm using as an example, but he's a small guy that is world class at powerlifting. He trains the bench press as one of his 3 biggest focuses. Not even going to wonder if it's natural or geared either (he uses steroids and that's fine), some people just aren't genetically as strong or genetically gifted leverage wise to deadlift. I'd imagine his arm length also makes benching harder, case in point.

I don't know why you're taking it personally that I disagree with you. Look I would be totally in agreement if we said...say a remotely average male can easily pull 3 plates from the floor in a relatively short time if they train even decently hard. Virtually everyone can do that.

But sorry, again same examples...everyone is not going to dunk a basketball. I said not everyone will bench 4 plates, or 500 pounds, but even 315 not everyone will do that. It was just an example. The point was more about aesthetics and athletic performance. If you truly believe you can "train hard!" and run a 4.3 or 4.4 then you're simply wrong. That requires genetics.

Also you say I'm unqualified. Okay, post a video of you dunking a basketball then or simply hanging on the rim. I can take one step and hang on the rim "untrained" for it, I'm 6 feet flat an inch shorter. Maybe my arms and standing reach are longer but apparently genetics is irrelevant. Never claimed to be a decorated powerlifter or competitive strongman, I didn't claim anything. My deadlift PR is 500 lbs, I couldn't do it right now. My last single was 415 on maybe a 2.5-3.5 inch deficit. I don't focus on powerlifting, I'm currently wrestling and doing BJJ. Didn't want to write an essay again, but does that satisfy you?

 

[No Skill Gap]

I never said soyboy. Thats something pussies call people to belittle them. You misunderstand what I'm saying.

It's synonymous. I understand exactly what you're saying. You're saying X is achievable and people can work hard and achieve it.

Evidence supporting you would be the 4 minute mile, how one guy broke it and then tons of others started to as well. And it's just pussy to have some attitude that "only steroid users can bench 315!" or something. I get it.

I'm just saying it's not always true. I've already used the example 10 times now, but not everyone can just train super hard and smart and achieve a 4.4 second range 40 yard dash. Or dunk a basketball. Or punch super hard and KO people easily. Those three specific things are largely genetic.

Can you improve sprinting speed, jumping, and punch power? Yes. But only by so much.

Lifting weights is a bad example for what I'm saying because it's relatively easy for people to progress in it with hard work, even naturally. But even then there's definitely limits. I don't think acknowledging that is a "bad thing" that will suddenly halt everyone's progress and lower the ceiling of what we can achieve. As long as you're not a pussy about it, I agree there.

 

[Robocok]

@JimRussel hey three plates is basically unattainable for most people right?

My point, Mr. No skill gap, is that you obviously have no credibility to discuss athletics at a high level because you are talking about absolute hobbyist level shit as if it were elite. If you had any experience or education in athletics, you wouldn't be talking like that. So my point is, its safe to dismiss everything you're saying. It's like someone saying planes are impossible because you tried making a paper airplane and it crashed. You just don't know anything about this.

Btw I'm 6"1 I weighed about 210. You gotta get out there and see what people are doing, none of this stuff should seem out of reach for any of you. Believe what you want. Lifestyle and habits are everything. I'm not talking about winning a sports trophy. I'm talking about achieving athletic performance that most people, like all of you clowns, consider elite. Anyone can do that unless they have like a bone disorder or something obvious like that that makes training unsafe or unwise.

Who said that his success was because he trained everyday like most people never do even one day? If you dont believe people like that exist, youre always gonna wonder what's wrong with you. It's just your lifestyle.

You talk like you are a champion and an authority on fitness. I doubt you're as good as you claim. Any stats to support your rhetoric? I'm nothing special but I probably trounce you athletically.

 

[JimRussel]

@JimRussel hey three plates is basically unattainable for most people right?

I could not care less, my man.

I’m not even reading these long ass posts.

 

[TerryMCLOOPS]

Listen bro all I said was I appreciate the sentiment but it's bullshit. Which it is. If you want to live in some fantasy land where everyone in the world can believe, achieve, succeed...then whatever.

I never said benching 315 was some Herculean feat of strength. I'm simply saying not everyone can do it. You think I'm wrong for saying that? Okay, let's look at Richard Hawthrone that powerlifter that deadlifts 600+ and squats over 500 as a 132 pounder. He benches 308.6 according to the numbers I see, at least while he could achieve those numbers.

Why doesn't he bench more? Does he not train hard enough? Does he not believe in himself?

Obviously that's a small guy that I'm using as an example, but he's a small guy that is world class at powerlifting. He trains the bench press as one of his 3 biggest focuses. Not even going to wonder if it's natural or geared either (he uses steroids and that's fine), some people just aren't genetically as strong or genetically gifted leverage wise to deadlift. I'd imagine his arm length also makes benching harder, case in point.

I don't know why you're taking it personally that I disagree with you. Look I would be totally in agreement if we said...say a remotely average male can easily pull 3 plates from the floor in a relatively short time if they train even decently hard. Virtually everyone can do that.

But sorry, again same examples...everyone is not going to dunk a basketball. I said not everyone will bench 4 plates, or 500 pounds, but even 315 not everyone will do that. It was just an example. The point was more about aesthetics and athletic performance. If you truly believe you can "train hard!" and run a 4.3 or 4.4 then you're simply wrong. That requires genetics.

Also you say I'm unqualified. Okay, post a video of you dunking a basketball then or simply hanging on the rim. I can take one step and hang on the rim "untrained" for it, I'm 6 feet flat an inch shorter. Maybe my arms and standing reach are longer but apparently genetics is irrelevant. Never claimed to be a decorated powerlifter or competitive strongman, I didn't claim anything. My deadlift PR is 500 lbs, I couldn't do it right now. My last single was 415 on maybe a 2.5-3.5 inch deficit. I don't focus on powerlifting, I'm currently wrestling and doing BJJ. Didn't want to write an essay again, but does that satisfy you?

Not taking it personal dude, its how I talk and I can only speak from experience. I do not understand how people are so fast to discount the importance of lifestyle, work, mindset and habits but they hold on genetics like its the main factor. Stupid, misguided, weak. That's what I believe!

It's synonymous. I understand exactly what you're saying. You're saying X is achievable and people can work hard and achieve it.

Evidence supporting you would be the 4 minute mile, how one guy broke it and then tons of others started to as well. And it's just pussy to have some attitude that "only steroid users can bench 315!" or something. I get it.

I'm just saying it's not always true. I've already used the example 10 times now, but not everyone can just train super hard and smart and achieve a 4.4 second range 40 yard dash. Or dunk a basketball. Or punch super hard and KO people easily. Those three specific things are largely genetic.

Can you improve sprinting speed, jumping, and punch power? Yes. But only by so much.

Lifting weights is a bad example for what I'm saying because it's relatively easy for people to progress in it with hard work, even naturally. But even then there's definitely limits. I don't think acknowledging that is a "bad thing" that will suddenly halt everyone's progress and lower the ceiling of what we can achieve. As long as you're not a pussy about it, I agree there.

Certainly with specific times and poundages at extremely high levels, genetics matter. Phelps body shape for instance. But that's not what I am talking about. I don't agree that observation is what were talking about, people are talking like you have to he born special to be a extraordinary athlete or a pro. That's wrong and I'm just sad to see so many people leaving so much on the table. I read this stuff sometimes when I dont feel training and it motivates me. It's all good if people wanna make excuses thats on them.

 

[TerryMCLOOPS]

You talk like you are a champion and an authority on fitness. I doubt you're as good as you claim. Any stats to support your rhetoric? I'm nothing special but I probably trounce you athletically.

Well if that's the case shouldn't I be impressed with your mom and dad, not you? Why would you even care? No different than how big your nose is if Im wrong. Good for you!

Youre the guy who needs fancy pink salt or you get sick, right?

 

[TerryMCLOOPS]

Alright I'm not trying to go Mark Twain again with a long post but what are you talking about?

You were saying that anyone could look like Herschel Walker naturally. No they fucking can't lol. First off Walker is definitely on PEDs, imo. Secondly, whether he is or isn't it's undeniable he has top tier genetics. Dude ran 4.4 speed at 220 pounds and won a Heisman.

He looked like this ^ and crushed two cans in Strikeforce at age 48 and 49, pushing 49-50 by 2 months in each appearance. I mean like I was trying to say, I appreciate the sentiment and I don't like weak willed "soyboy" natty or not guys either. But this guy is natty? Yeah okay bro lol. Almost everyone in the NFL is on steroids it's virtually a fact, so a former NFL player who claims to only do push ups and looks like this at age 50 basically, natural? Ok.

Tangent, but the point is no you can't just work hard and achieve anything you want. Is that a message you want to tell a kid? No. But I assume we're not talking to 5-12 year olds here in this thread.

As for Izzy...I mean you think he can bench 315? Maybe I don't think it's impossible but I don't think he ever would in his life unless he dedicated himself to powerlifting full time and probably used steroids. Again, Jon Jones has ~30-40 pounds on him and is all but confirmed to be on steroids at the time of his 315 bench press with a bro spot, probably a 300-310 pound lift in actuality.



Now could Jones improve beyond that? Obviously he was powerlifting for like 6 months there or something, maybe a year. But I don't think Jon Jones genetically is ever going to become some fucking stud bencher. He will never bench 500 pounds in his life no matter what he does.

Kevin Durant couldn't do a single rep of 185lbs at the NBA combine. He probably never benched before or rarely, so could he do 185? I'm sure he could with training obviously. But is he ever going to bench 315? No, doubt it. So while you might say you're an alcoholic sailor, did you leave out the part where maybe you were 5'10 250lbs and trained powerlifting for years and are built to be good at bench genetically? Idk.

Didn't mean to write a long post, but again I agree with your sentiment I just disagree with you applying it to reality. People should strive to be the best they can be, yes. But that doesn't mean everyone can dunk a basketball or deadlift 700+ pounds or bench 4 plates one day, some people just can't get there...a lot of people.

So your lifestyle and habits dont start when you're 18, 21, or whenever you decide. Just because most people wait too long and are too far down other roads doesnt mean they couldn't have gone down a different one if they had opportunity education exposure whatever. This is basic stuff, wind the clock back. Most people who are adults who have been committed to living wrong cannot achieve what Walker has, that is true. I believe most of them could have, at least genetically. Their lives did not allow it, lots dont have opportunity, never find drive, meet the right coach, whatever. Doesn't mean it is their genetics that made this happen.

Also, if you had a twin who drank soda all day and never trained, he'd be in the shape you are, doing all these atheletic feats? I dont believe you. I bet you work pretty hard.