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Neoliberal Technocracy - FOR or AGAINST?

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Tycho Brah, Jun 29, 2020.

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Neoliberal Technocracy - FOR or AGAINST?

This poll will close on Jul 13, 2020 at 5:30 PM.
  1. Generally in favour

    6.7%
  2. Generally opposed

    93.3%
  3. It's complicated / this is the wrong framing

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. TS is a globalist shill / nationalist bigot

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Tycho Brah You drink water, I drink anarchy Platinum Member

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    A society described as a neoliberal technocracy prioritizes the following values:
    • freedom of capital
    • leadership through technical expertise
    In a neoliberal technocracy you may see some of the following characteristics:
    • free markets
    • low cost of goods
    • internationalist politics intertwined with trade partners
    • libertarian social values
    • labour arbitrage as corporations seek the lowest possible production costs
    • highly specialized industry sectors
    • science-based domestic policy
    • technological innovation
    • interventionist foreign policy
    • economic growth
    • open borders
    • high standard of living and average life expectancy
    Some weaknesses may include the following:
    • discouragement of trade unions
    • abusive labour practices
    • discouragement of national/ethnic allegiances
    • consumerism
    • tendency toward corporate monopolies
    • wealth inequality and shrinking middle class
    • minimal welfare state
    • aggressive foreign policy
    • open borders
    • political polarization
    Insofar as American / North American society can call itself a neoliberal technocracy, it seems to have a bit of cognitive dissonance about the outcomes of such an approach. Cheap goods and a relatively peaceful foreign policy based on cooperation are praised, while the abuse of foreign labour and shrinking nationalism are condemned. Technological innovation is welcome, although it increasingly benefits only the fraction of society that can afford it. Freedom of capital and labour are emphasized in theory, but immigration and supranational organizations are demonized. Are these true contradictions, or are they the perspectives of a divided population?

    Are we a neoliberal technocracy now? Should we be striving for more of it, or less?

    Vote and discuss.
     
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  2. Natural Order Naughty by Nurture

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    I support the depopulation of earth to responsible levels.

    Technology will kill us.

    No more isms.
     
  3. Tycho Brah You drink water, I drink anarchy Platinum Member

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    Antinatalist Luddite!

    There, no -isms ;)
     
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  4. freakroor Brown Belt

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    decriminalized drugs and prostitution? count me in..
     
  5. all caps Gold Belt

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    Im interested in the "leave me alone" society. Does this society provide for thar?
     
  6. bobgeese Gold Belt

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    Everything sounds great until you remember people will fuck it up, because well, we’re just frustrated apes flying around on a rock.
     
  7. TheGreatA Silver Belt

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    I have difficulty seeing this model as something that will function properly, without a lot of meddling by the state in people's personal affairs, as well as group dynamics.

    You'd need the state to serve as a sort of an over-seeing "Big Brother", to prevent any group from developing a collective consciousness, which might grow strong enough to threaten the stability of the state which derives its power from the division of groups into relatively powerless individuals.

    The greatness of America, in the past, really has been the fact that they were able to market their "Americanism" as a substitute to the previous ethnic/religious/cultural identities of the immigrants. Americanism, cleverly, included a worship of many of these "neo-liberal" characteristics, yet it also allowed the people to retain some of the more superficial qualities of their previous identity, the flag-waving, the food, whacky traditions, etc. which are relatively meaningless stuff at the end of the day, that threaten no society that isn't outright totalitarian.

    Without something comparable to "Americanism" serving as the base identity of this neo-liberal society, I can only see it as an experiment doomed to fail, because humans, whether we like to admit it or not, do have a tendency to operate in groups, to create identities based on such groups, and measure the worth of their lives based on how accurately they are representing their group's values.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  8. Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog Platinum Member

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    Can't decide between 1 and 3.
     
  9. Pinyin Undisputed Winner of 2019 Best WR Poster

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    the libertarian movement.
     
  10. Tycho Brah You drink water, I drink anarchy Platinum Member

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    I agree that maintaining the system would be a bit of a balancing act, but this seems pessimistic. Why would sufficiently provided for groups be motivated to develop "collective consciousness" in such a way as to challenge the stability of the state? Ultimately the few functions that the state is accomplishing in this scenario should make them better off.

    I it's generally true that nationalism (where it isn't distinctly ethnic) is meant to transcend more basic group boundaries, though I agree that America has historically done an especially good job of it. But I think many human groupings are consistent with this framework, with limitations only really on those who threaten capital. People are still free to associate however else they like.
     
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  11. Tycho Brah You drink water, I drink anarchy Platinum Member

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    What pushes you toward 3?

    I thought there'd be more of a debate about which features of a neoliberal technocracy are necessary to it (or at least occur along with it very frequently) as opposed to those that present an aberration.

    But since I know you're interested in the history of labour movements as well as supportive of free markets in general, what's the comfortable balance between nationalisms and a neoliberal global governance?

    *not literal governance
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  12. Tycho Brah You drink water, I drink anarchy Platinum Member

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    Which one? Does that include the free movement of labour across national borders?
     
  13. GiTGuD Green Belt

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    Technology is saving humanity.


    It's clear that Technology has made human life easier, better, and longer lasting.....Now it's totally changing what it is to be "human" so IDK if the trade offs are worth it or not but there is clearly advantages to technology.


    Deus Ex hits it right in the head...eventually Super AI computers will moderate/governed the whole world while having instantaneous inputs of everybody...It's like the ultimate congressman/president.....That shit is totally happening in the future IMO


     
  14. The Stoat Blue Belt

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    No.

    I will take the US Constitutional Republic.

    Nationalism is good and borders are good if you plan on having a nation
     
  15. Corn Pop Hombre Yellow Card Yellow Card

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    Yeah, you'll be "left alone". As the technocracy cuts down all the trees you built your hermit cabin in. Poisons your waters. Poisons your air. Leaves your family economically destitute.
     
  16. D3THRONED Brown Belt

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    Poll is going to be extremely one-sided and rightfully so.
     
  17. TheGreatA Silver Belt

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    Any economy, no matter how strong, will eventually have periods of down-turns/depressions. Can you really put your faith in constant economic growth, as the sole basis of a state? Is a detached secular state which promises, probably unrealistically so, to provide prosperity to all, truly going to be enough to serve as a unifying factor for all the people involved? What if some people are simply making the wrong choices and cannot succeed under this system (especially the people who come in with no education, or from entrenched cultures that are counter-productive to functioning in a capitalist society), creating an under-class of permanent "losers"? Do you think these people are simply going to reflect upon themselves and their mistakes in shame, instead of feeling bitter and blaming the system (which they have no sentimental attachment towards) as rigged?

    I'm just not too convinced that this sort of a model is going to survive any "what if?" scenarios. Imagine a prolonged case of coronavirus, which completely tanks all the state's promises of growth, and sends a lot of people to the bottom of the economic hierarchy. How can the neo-liberal state prevent a populist backlash demanding a change to the system, unless it has literally built a common, yes, national identity around the values of neo-liberalism?

    Only under such a scenario may the people be willing to have faith in the system, even irrational faith, despite a failure to temporarily provide what it has promised. Even if they belong to the under-class. Humans struggle to see the "long-term" objectives when the main motivator behind their actions is hedonism, comfort, prosperity, acquisition of wealth, and are prone to constantly looking for short-term solutions in order to guarantee continued prosperity. But when humans are motivated by ideology, social bonds, communality, faith, they are willing to make even great sacrifices in order to maintain the system's existence, because they see it as an extension of themselves and their identity.

    The modern secular, "neo-liberal" state often misunderstands the human condition and only seeks to provide economic prosperity to people. And that is why the secular state, which provides no common bond, is always at risk of being over-thrown by models that clearly are inferior when it comes to providing economic prosperity, yet they are much more capable at providing answers to the questions that people ask, that are not related to the pursuit of the "capital". Which greatly encourage people to invest in these systems emotionally, and become its staunch defenders, driven by dogma rather than truth, no matter how incapable the system may be at generating any sort of prosperity (just look at socialism and communism basically since its inception).

    Neo-liberalism without a strong national, or supra-national identity if you wish, revolving around its principles, is a concept that's dead in the water, in my eyes. Americans did it the way it's supposed to be done, instilling into people a sense of ultra-patriotism which encouraged a "pull yourself by the bootstraps" mentality, even among people who were incapable of doing so. The image of the self-made, independent American man, became like the image of Jesus or Muhammad to religious followers, an example to emulate after.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  18. Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog Platinum Member

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    Just have a problem with some of the description and goals. I think we have to keep in mind that the purpose of a system should be increasing living standards for people. Free markets lead to growth and higher standards of living, but markets are also disruptive to society and dislocations can cause severe problems for individual people's lives. So I support strong labor unions (which also has to be balanced against other issues) and a strong safety net (stronger than we currently have). I don't see "aggressive foreign policy" to even be part of the project. And "interventionism" IMO is a dud category, as it could refer to diplomacy or trade as well as military action (which would go against the project).
     
  19. Rocco Siffredi Blue Belt

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    At this point I am hoping for 3 tittied Martian bitches.....but then again almost my whole life I've been hoping for a 3 tittied Martian bitch.

    Unions are shit. Go look at teacher and police unions for proof.
     

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