Nelson - Lewis and Oleinik - Moleyanchuk epitomise what's happened to sub grappling in HW MMA

[Concrete Whale]

Nelson and Oleinik are high level MMA grapplers with subs and takedowns, were able to repeatedly take down their opponents and advance to half guard or side control, sometimes even mount and attempt various subs but in the end their opponents just squirmed out and got up and they were left with an 'advantage' in the judges' minds. Meanwhile their opponents were striking and even in the 10 or 20% of the fight where they weren't on their backs, or sitting against the cage trying to stand up, or standing against the cage trying to stop the takedown they managed to connect and do significant damage, which won them decisions.

Using wrestling to strike is still effective but BJJ is becoming less and less relevant.

 

[Which Doctor]

 

[RTD1]

Meh. It's just a different game without the gi when both people are soaking wet. I've been doing BJJ for almost 3 years now, 2 stripe blue, and in the gi I still suck at getting out of side control against someone who is my level or higher and my size or bigger. No gi and wet is a completely different story - bridge, get an underhook, get to knees, single leg and I'm out, even against purples and browns who outweigh me, every time. Same from on top - I crush the shit out of people when I'm in side control on top in the gi, but it's hard as hell to keep them down in no gi when wet.

 

[fanboysareevil]

It has been almost 10 years to the day since Roy Nelson submitted anyone in MMA. Clearly, BJJ is dead.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Meh. It's just a different game without the gi when both people are soaking wet. I've been doing BJJ for almost 3 years now, 2 stripe blue, and in the gi I still suck at getting out of side control against someone who is my level or higher and my size or bigger. No gi and wet is a completely different story - bridge, get an underhook, get to knees, single leg and I'm out, even against purples and browns who outweigh me, every time. Same from on top - I crush the shit out of people when I'm in side control on top in the gi, but it's hard as hell to keep them down in no gi when wet.

That is because you havent gotten comfortable with NS position/choke. one of my favorite chokes is the NS, as you get the underhook, im wrapping my arm around your neck and dropping my lats on your face to make sure you dont go anywhere. Normally the person who's aware will identify the arm wrapping the head and start turning his face towards my lats to avoid the choke, you can still get to NS though, or at least a front head lock which you could transition to back take, if he is not used to people NSchoking him, you are getting the choke, and for some reason people is not used to the choke.

Of course freaks of nature will make the position very hard to stabilize, people with crazy bridge and stuff, but IMHO, is the first transition you should do if you've lost the far underhook. In mma you see so many people escape like this because people is really concern about punching from side control, which generates space.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Nelson and Oleinik are high level MMA grapplers with subs and takedowns, were able to repeatedly take down their opponents and advance to half guard or side control, sometimes even mount and attempt various subs but in the end their opponents just squirmed out and got up and they were left with an 'advantage' in the judges' minds. Meanwhile their opponents were striking and even in the 10 or 20% of the fight where they weren't on their backs, or sitting against the cage trying to stand up, or standing against the cage trying to stop the takedown they managed to connect and do significant damage, which won them decisions.

Using wrestling to strike is still effective but BJJ is becoming less and less relevant.

as an strategy, I would say yes wrestling/kickboxing defently wins decisions and of course, kos. You still have to be pretty good at grappling, and jiu jitsu still can save your ass, on the same card you are talking about, el cucuy saved his ass with a beautiful transition from guillotine to d'arce.

 

[jcandoitbig]

That is because you havent gotten comfortable with NS position/choke. one of my favorite chokes is the NS, as you get the underhook, im wrapping my arm around your neck and dropping my lats on your face to make sure you dont go anywhere. Normally the person who's aware will identify the arm wrapping the head and start turning his face towards my lats to avoid the choke, you can still get to NS though, or at least a front head lock which you could transition to back take, if he is not used to people NSchoking him, you are getting the choke, and for some reason people is not used to the choke.

Of course freaks of nature will make the position very hard to stabilize, people with crazy bridge and stuff, but IMHO, is the first transition you should do if you've lost the far underhook. In mma you see so many people escape like this because people is really concern about punching from side control, which generates space.

I fucking love NS chokes, I feel they're generally underutilized

 

[Uchi Mata]

I fucking love NS chokes, I feel they're generally underutilized

They're hard to finish consistently on good people. Most aren't willing to invest the time to get the finish right.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

They're hard to finish consistently on good people. Most aren't willing to invest the time to get the finish right.

this, you have to put in the time in the choke.

The many times Ive taught this choke in class, some do get it some dont ever get it, you can teach every single detail that you do to make it work, but at the end of the day, its a "feeling" choke, and to "feel" the choke you have to work on it.

 

[Concrete Whale]

Meh. It's just a different game without the gi when both people are soaking wet. I've been doing BJJ for almost 3 years now, 2 stripe blue, and in the gi I still suck at getting out of side control against someone who is my level or higher and my size or bigger. No gi and wet is a completely different story - bridge, get an underhook, get to knees, single leg and I'm out, even against purples and browns who outweigh me, every time. Same from on top - I crush the shit out of people when I'm in side control on top in the gi, but it's hard as hell to keep them down in no gi when wet.

Without the 5 minute rounds and ref standups fighters could take their time to break down their opponent but how much that would help is hard to tell I suppose.

 

[FatherSauce]

this, you have to put in the time in the choke.

The many times Ive taught this choke in class, some do get it some dont ever get it, you can teach every single detail that you do to make it work, but at the end of the day, its a "feeling" choke, and to "feel" the choke you have to work on it.

This is the truth. I've been working this choke for about 4 years and I'm still only so-so at finishing. It's a great option that's available a lot but I often find myself transitioning off of it or cheating it somehow. One day I'll be good at it.

 

[randomg1t]

someone needs to inform demian maia that BJJ is becoming irrelevant. he might have a thing or two to say about that.

 

[rmongler]

Choking someone from n/s is a lot like choking them with shoulders of justice; you keep then down and keep adjusting until you get it 'just so', patiantly ramping up the pressure till you get the tap.

 

[EndlessCritic]

they were different fights

oleinik took some big risks and ended up on his back in rd2, which cost him the fight.

nelson literally did fuck all in rd3 from the top position, which cost him the fight.

 

[Concrete Whale]

they were different fights

oleinik took some big risks and ended up on his back in rd2, which cost him the fight.

nelson literally did fuck all in rd3 from the top position, which cost him the fight.

Yeah he knew as soon as he tried something he would lose the position.

 

[Concrete Whale]

Once again Lewis got totally dominated in terms of clinch control / wrestling / takedowns / BJJ advancing position and attempting subs + gnp, but either the round ended or he was able to stall for a break / standup, or get to his feet and in the end got the TKO. He did get it by takedown to side control - mount - gnp early stoppage though. Abdurakhimov must have gassed out or just assumed Lewis wouldn't try a TD.

Seems like the Cain Velasquez strategy is the way to go if you are going to do all that to your opponent do it with a huge volume of strikes otherwise if could all be for nothing.