Need help with my workout (Fighters)

Don't you know? that's how Broz works. Max out every day, overtrain, and overtrain some more, until the overtraining goes away... *rolls eyes*

but the chinese and russians told him to!
 
Don't you know? that's how Broz works. Max out every day, overtrain, and overtrain some more, until the overtraining goes away... *rolls eyes*

I take it you don't agree with a lot of his ideas. Have you read this article?

Q&A

What do you think of it?
 
You're right, I don't like most of them. I'm sure this is going to get a bunch of negative responses since it seems like it's the only way to talk around here. But, I just find the 3 day work outs so short ya know? I mean I guess if they are proven to work, they work. Just seems like I should be doing more than 3X5 sets and 3 work outs. But if that's what I have to do that's what i'll do. I just want to move my mma game to another level. I've read books and stuff but a lot of the exercises I can't do in our gym because the aerobic room is always in use. So I was hoping someone here would provide me with their workout plan, didn't think it would be this difficult hahah. Someone did at the beginning though and I wrote that down though so I guess i'll give that a shot next week.
 
^

Those 3 exercises were taking me an average of an hour and a half to complete towards the end of my novice SS run. And trust me, they are no walk in the park. Don't be fooled by the simplicity.
 
Tosa, what's so bad about maxing out every day? I don't find that to be hard, or too taxing. Now doing 20 heavy triples every day, that's something different, that is something that I don't think I could last doing very long...

Also about overtraining, I'm still unsure... can you actually tell whether you are overtraining by how you feel? Because one week (well 6 days to be exact) in the summer I did about 60 heavy squat triples overall, and I felt fine. On the 6th day I actually managed a 42" box jump for the first time. Maybe you can't feel your cns not getting enough rest? I don't know...
 
I take it you don't agree with a lot of his ideas. Have you read this article?

Q&A

What do you think of it?

He's saying lifting heavy is good. I agree. He makes no mention of lifting maximal weight with the same muscle groups consecutively 4 days in a row.


Also, thanks for the article, that should be a sticky
 
I take it you don't agree with a lot of his ideas. Have you read this article?

Q&A

What do you think of it?

Tosa, what's so bad about maxing out every day? I don't find that to be hard, or too taxing. Now doing 20 heavy triples every day, that's something different, that is something that I don't think I could last doing very long...

Also about overtraining, I'm still unsure... can you actually tell whether you are overtraining by how you feel? Because one week (well 6 days to be exact) in the summer I did about 60 heavy squat triples overall, and I felt fine. On the 6th day I actually managed a 42" box jump for the first time. Maybe you can't feel your cns not getting enough rest? I don't know...

My understanding of Neurobiology is limited, so I'm not going to try and refute particular details in that article.

What I will say is that (1) if you look at what are generally conisdered "good routines", Sheiko, westside, TM, 5/3/1, and so on, you'll find that there's only so many heavy reps in a month, it'll vary from one routine to another, but there's a surprisingly similar amount of "heavy work"...so I think it's reasonable to conclude it's because this amount works.

(2) It runs counter to what's recommened by Verkoshansky, Zatsiorsky, Prilepin, Sheiko, Simmons...and so on. And it'll take more evidence to convince me that what they consider to be good programming is wrong. All of whom consider the inclusion of light and meduim loads important. Certainly more people have gotten strong following the principles laid out by the people/routines mentioned above than by maxing out everyday.

(3) In every other case where lifting everyday is done, it's done after gradually increasing volume over years.

(4) When we write "overtraining" we usually mean "overeaching", which is a short term condition, that can be fixed by taking it easy, getting some more good food, making use of recovery methods like massage or contrast showers. But Overtraining in actuality is a serious medical condition, which can take months to recover from...so training through overtraining seems like very bad advice.

(5) Broz talks about being inspired by the Bulgarian method...the Bulgarian method only really existed as most people understand it under Abadjiev, and was heavily dependant on PEDs, as well as the athletes constantly being monitored by coaches. It's also a program for taking someone with the potential to compete in weightlifting at a very high level and forfill the potential...it's not a program for the average person who just what's to get stronger, and stay stronger...the Bulgarian lifters had much shorter competive careers than the Russians.

PWR1982, if that works for you, fine. Maybe you're a freak of nature (in a good way). Or maybe you'd have even better success training differently. Or eventually reach the point where you do need to train differently.
 
You're right, I don't like most of them. I'm sure this is going to get a bunch of negative responses since it seems like it's the only way to talk around here. But, I just find the 3 day work outs so short ya know? I mean I guess if they are proven to work, they work. Just seems like I should be doing more than 3X5 sets and 3 work outs. But if that's what I have to do that's what i'll do. I just want to move my mma game to another level. I've read books and stuff but a lot of the exercises I can't do in our gym because the aerobic room is always in use. So I was hoping someone here would provide me with their workout plan, didn't think it would be this difficult hahah. Someone did at the beginning though and I wrote that down though so I guess i'll give that a shot next week.

We did give you our workout plans. A lot of people on this forum started with one of those beginner routines, Starting Strength being one of the most popular.

At first just doing the 3 lifts each day will seem easy but every time you successfully do the 3 sets of 5 you add 5 lb to the bar the next time. Since you squat 3 times/week that means over 9 weeks (2 months) you will add 135 lb to your squat. So you might think squatting 200 lb for 3 sets of 5 sounds easy now but how about squatting 335 for 3 sets of 5 at Christmas time? (200 is just a random number for demonstration purposes).
 
My understanding of Neurobiology is limited, so I'm not going to try and refute particular details in that article.

What I will say is that (1) if you look at what are generally conisdered "good routines", Sheiko, westside, TM, 5/3/1, and so on, you'll find that there's only so many heavy reps in a month, it'll vary from one routine to another, but there's a surprisingly similar amount of "heavy work"...so I think it's reasonable to conclude it's because this amount works.

(2) It runs counter to what's recommened by Verkoshansky, Zatsiorsky, Prilepin, Sheiko, Simmons...and so on. And it'll take more evidence to convince me that what they consider to be good programming is wrong. All of whom consider the inclusion of light and meduim loads important. Certainly more people have gotten strong following the principles laid out by the people/routines mentioned above than by maxing out everyday.

(3) In every other case where lifting everyday is done, it's done after gradually increasing volume over years.

(4) When we write "overtraining" we usually mean "overeaching", which is a short term condition, that can be fixed by taking it easy, getting some more good food, making use of recovery methods like massage or contrast showers. But Overtraining in actuality is a serious medical condition, which can take months to recover from...so training through overtraining seems like very bad advice.

(5) Broz talks about being inspired by the Bulgarian method...the Bulgarian method only really existed as most people understand it under Abadjiev, and was heavily dependant on PEDs, as well as the athletes constantly being monitored by coaches. It's also a program for taking someone with the potential to compete in weightlifting at a very high level and forfill the potential...it's not a program for the average person who just what's to get stronger, and stay stronger...the Bulgarian lifters had much shorter competive careers than the Russians.

PWR1982, if that works for you, fine. Maybe you're a freak of nature (in a good way). Or maybe you'd have even better success training differently. Or eventually reach the point where you do need to train differently.

I'm sure my understanding of neuroscience is much less extensive than yours and I have only a vague idea of Broz's actual training methods, so any argument on my part is probably irrelevant. Nonetheless...

I believe Broz actually does recommend gradually increasing workload up to the stage of maxing every day or whatever he actually does with his elite lifters. I do think I remember seeing somewhere where he recommends starting at back squatting heavy (although I'm not sure if this is necessarily a max single each day) 3x a week and gradually adding to that.

Regardless, no matter how retarded it may look on paper, I just can't really argue with Pat Mendes and Rob Adell. Possible explanations: 1. they both happen to be incredible genetic freaks, 2. they are on the sauce and are somehow not getting caught, 3. Broz's training methods actually have some merit to them, or 4. some combination of the above.

And there are people unaffiliated with Broz who have made good progress using his ideas. Off the top of my head, a poster called The Natural on Power and Bulk forums used Broz-esque/Bulgarian training for a while and made very good progress before the injuries caught up with him. He has a log about it that you can skim over if you want. He also happens to be a strong mofo, which makes the log all the more interesting.
 
Thanks all. Got some info and an argument, all around good thread haha
 
what percentage of your max are your singles? I doubt any one of them advised you to do heavy sets of the same exercises every freakin day. That will burn out the average lifter.

85%-95%

usually on the lower end depends on how i'm feeling

TOSA you believe single daily maxes on a squat 4x a week will lead to overtraining?!??!
 
Starting strength, the 2 day split, Bill Starr 5x5, etc. Ffs.

If you want to take your MMA game to 'another level' train a lot more mma.... being in the weight room 5 days a week is retarded, especially if you're dedicating a whole hour+ just to training your biceps.....


I'm sure an hour's worth of curls is going to give you a strong punch and make you un-armbarable....................


not.
 
Tosa, I think you may be writing off Broz' methods prematurely. I think there's something to his training methods as well as his belief that the overtraining excuse is generally a cop-out.

On the other hand, I'm not sure his methods are appropriate for someone interested in MMA because I don't see how someone can max out daily and still be at his best for fighting. Personally, I think TS should limit his strength training to like a 2-day split as found in the FAQs and focus more on grappling, sparring, etc. I would do the following:

Day one:
Squat
Bench press
Bent over row

Day two:
Deadlift (rotate with Power Cleans)
Overhead press
Weighted pullup/chinup

If he has the experience, mix in some olympic lifting - C&J and Snatch.
 
Tosa, I think you may be writing off Broz' methods prematurely. I think there's something to his training methods as well as his belief that the overtraining excuse is generally a cop-out.

On the other hand, I'm not sure his methods are appropriate for someone interested in MMA because I don't see how someone can max out daily and still be at his best for fighting. Personally, I think TS should limit his strength training to like a 2-day split as found in the FAQs and focus more on grappling, sparring, etc. I would do the following:

Day one:
Squat
Bench press
Bent over row

Day two:
Deadlift (rotate with Power Cleans)
Overhead press
Weighted pullup/chinup

If he has the experience, mix in some olympic lifting - C&J and Snatch.

A fighters main training should consist of actually fighting(training new techniques, refining, sparring, etc.)

This was an outline of an offseason wrestling strength program.
 
I believe Broz actually does recommend gradually increasing workload up to the stage of maxing every day or whatever he actually does with his elite lifters. I do think I remember seeing somewhere where he recommends starting at back squatting heavy (although I'm not sure if this is necessarily a max single each day) 3x a week and gradually adding to that.

Maybe. I admit I don't pay a lot of attention to anything concerning Broz...although the entire bit about "training through the dark times" seems contradictory to the idea of progressing to that kind of training frequency and intensity. Besides squatting to max singles 3x a week is still too much for anybody who isn't "special".

Regardless, no matter how retarded it may look on paper, I just can't really argue with Pat Mendes and Rob Adell. Possible explanations: 1. they both happen to be incredible genetic freaks, 2. they are on the sauce and are somehow not getting caught, 3. Broz's training methods actually have some merit to them, or 4. some combination of the above.

And there are people unaffiliated with Broz who have made good progress using his ideas. Off the top of my head, a poster called The Natural on Power and Bulk forums used Broz-esque/Bulgarian training for a while and made very good progress before the injuries caught up with him. He has a log about it that you can skim over if you want. He also happens to be a strong mofo, which makes the log all the more interesting.

A suspect it's more a combination of 1&2. Besides, I don't think it's a matter of what "can" work, but what is most likely to work well, for the individual.

And, I think "before the injuries caught up with him" is signifcant...Bulgarian methods can work, under certain circumstances, Abadjiev proved this. The question is whether it's reasonable for the vast majority of us to try a replicate these circumstances, and if that fits with your goals. Keep in mind that Russian methods are more generally applicable (the bulgarian system was only the bulgarian system under Abadjiev, where as the Russian system works under various coaches, the Chinese system borrows heavily from the Russian system, and, as Sheiko has demonstrated, can be applied to powerlifting), and the Russian athletes have longer competive careers with a greater amount of GPP.

I mean on one hand we have all kinds of exercise science and empirical data, from people like Verkhoshansky, Prilepin, Zatsiorsky, Bompa, Medvedyev and we can see it successfully applied as training systems by Sheiko, Simmons and so on....as well as other coaches making succesful routines based off of those training systems. They're tried and true, both in science and experience. On the other hand there's Broz....

85%-95%

usually on the lower end depends on how i'm feeling

TOSA you believe single daily maxes on a squat 4x a week will lead to overtraining?!??!

Yes. And if your max for that day is 85% of your true max, then I'd say it's likely you're either overtrained, overreaching, or at some point undergone some amount of detraining.
 
A fighters main training should consist of actually fighting(training new techniques, refining, sparring, etc.)

This was an outline of an offseason wrestling strength program.

So when TS said he had a fight in January and wanted to prepare properly, you thought it was appropriate to suggest your 5-day/week offseason program consisting of heavy cleans and squats every day? Care to rethink that?
 
Tosa, I think you may be writing off Broz' methods prematurely. I think there's something to his training methods as well as his belief that the overtraining excuse is generally a cop-out.

On the other hand, I'm not sure his methods are appropriate for someone interested in MMA because I don't see how someone can max out daily and still be at his best for fighting. Personally, I think TS should limit his strength training to like a 2-day split as found in the FAQs and focus more on grappling, sparring, etc. I would do the following:

Day one:
Squat
Bench press
Bent over row

Day two:
Deadlift (rotate with Power Cleans)
Overhead press
Weighted pullup/chinup

If he has the experience, mix in some olympic lifting - C&J and Snatch.

For the sake of shoulder health, I don't know that you can suggest Overhead press without accessing him. Especially with benching and all the punching he's going to be doing.
 
Tosa, I think you may be writing off Broz' methods prematurely. I think there's something to his training methods as well as his belief that the overtraining excuse is generally a cop-out.

I missed this earlier.

I don't want to write off his methods entirely...I want to be open minded. It's just that there's a well established science and way of doing things that works very well for pretty much everyone. So I'm going to be skeptical until there's an empirical evidence of it being a generally succesful training methodology for a signifcant number of lifters and, ideally, some sort of explanation of why it works, and why training through overtraining works...and also something suggesting that it's in some way superior to existing training methodology.

Overtraining can be an excuse, but at the same time, it's a real condition. How to Stimulate strength gains while avoiding excess fatigue accumulation is a central concern when it comes to getting stronger.
 
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