Name for a judo throw (possible Hane Goshi)

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by snap-or-tap, Jul 23, 2010.

  1. snap-or-tap

    snap-or-tap White Belt

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    So, I started out going for a Tai Otoshi by grabbing the cross grip (my left hand on his left sleeve, my right hand on his left lapel), but rather than stepping my right foot between and my left foot outside, then sliding my right foot outside and popping my hip to complete the Tai Otoshi, I stepped my right foot in placing my right heel right next to his right big toe, the same with the left (similar to the foot placement for an Epon). As i was stepping my left foot back I started the throw which culminated in a deep pop of my hips and me leaning forward about 45 degrees.

    My opponents often went straight over my head or off about 15% to the side but still nearly linear. After looking online for a little bit it looks similar to a Hane Goshi (Spring Hip Throw), but all the illustrations have your opponent landing nearly perpendicular to yourself (you slide right into side control), where the throw I have been hitting they are in line with me and I can slide into north south.

    So, is this a Hane Goshi or something else??
     
  2. Darkslide632

    Darkslide632 Brown Belt

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    1) You pop your hip during tai otoshi?
    2) Ippon
    3) Hane goshi isn't performed with the same foot position as seoi nage.
    4) Next time make a video.
     
  3. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP

    KBE6EKCTAH_CCP ^Korean Chef Kevin Lee, NOT Fighter Kevin Lee

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    Holy crap I couldn't even visualise your throw without effort and I didn't feel like giving effort.
     
  4. snap-or-tap

    snap-or-tap White Belt

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    1. When I do I tai otoshi as I slide my right foot to the outside and bring my hands around, it's more of a pop with the leg, but I do drive my leg back and pop my hip slightly to generate more torque on my opponents body. I could easily be doing it wrong.
    2. good call
    3) I've never seen the hane goshi demonstrated so I'm at work trying to go by illustrations and not demonstrations.
    4) Wish I could have captured it on film.

    I am just starting out and still learning a lot every day, I appreciate your help. Any idea on what the throw I am doing is called. It's very effective and have hit it a few times rolling, I just want to know the name for it if at all possible.
     
  5. J Sho

    J Sho Green Belt

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    Doesn't sound like Hane goshi. your initial set up sounds very odd as well, do you mean his left sleeve as in his sleeve on your left side, otherwise those grips make no sense.

    hane goshi
    [​IMG]

    by the way, Maeda didn't teach Helio BJJ so your lineage needs changing.
     
  6. snap-or-tap

    snap-or-tap White Belt

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    Sorry, I just tried to be as detailed as possible so someone could understand in detail how my body was possitioned.

    Basically I have a cross grip and my body is in a position like I am executing an Ippon Seoi Nage, then I pop my hip and lean forward.
     
  7. snap-or-tap

    snap-or-tap White Belt

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    yes, his right sleeve, my left, apologies,

    Wow, I completely missed Carlos Gracie, thank you so much. I traced it back one night on a website and must have overlooked it, I sincerely appreciate your help.
     
  8. Darkslide632

    Darkslide632 Brown Belt

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    If I had to take a shot at it, I'd say some kind of bastardization of morote seoi nage from a cross lapel grip. Morote seoi nage is often performed with the cross lapel grip to relieve pressure on tori's shoulder.

    If you're performing a throw and uke is flying directly over your head, there is something wrong. Generally speaking, kake requires an equal amount of twisting and bending. Twist without bending and uke will land at a 90 degree angle to you, feet pointing away from you at 3 or 9 o'clock. Bend without twisting and uke will fall how you described, with feet pointing at 12 o'clock, directly away from you. With an equal amount of twist and bend, uke will fall at a perfect 45 degree angle. I do this demonstration in class relatively often.

    I have a student who has an issue which sounds very close to what it is that you're describing. The cause, I believe, is because he is a weight lifter and has a significant amount of muscle memory built up from squatting. When I try to get him to bend his legs and keep his back straight, he goes into a virtually perfect squatting position. Unfortunately that position isn't conducive to performing a good seoi nage (Or many other forward throws).

    Part of the problem is that when squatting, you remain flat footed. You must. But if you stand up right now and try to squat while flat footed, you'll notice a couple things.

    • The first is that it is virtually impossible to bend your legs much at all while keeping your back straight. If you REALLY want to test it, stand up against a wall and try to squat while keeping your heels on the floor and your shoulder blades touching the wall. Now try the same thing while allowing your heels to come up. You'll notice that it is not a problem at all.
    • The second is that the bodies natural reaction to trying to squat with the heels flat is to go into a squatters position. That is with your ass stuck out behind you and your back bent forward at roughly a 45 degree angle.

    What happens when you do this while attempting a forward throw is that your hips push uke backwards, which is not helpful when trying to throw them forward. And also, if your hands are doing their job, it will cause uke to bend at the waist, thus adjusting their center of gravity and causing your squatting to become useless.

    To counteract this, the response seems to be to "pop" your hips backwards during the improper squatting motion, while at the same time pulling uke forward with your hands. It uses the improper action of the hips and ass shooting backwards as a tool to throw uke.

    It's horrible technique. That's not a slight against you. You're new. But it IS awful technique and you shouldn't get into the habit of using it.

    First, it's dangerous to uke. It's dangerous because it is tough for tori to twist while making that motion and thus uke flies directly over your head, which could lead to a potential spiking on their head if you lose your balance. It's also dangerous to uke's knees if they are particularly tall and your hips fly backwards into their knees.

    Second, it is simply improper technique. You are not learning to get your center of gravity below your uke's before lifting. You're using the explosive popping motion in it's place, which is inefficient and ineffective vs. people bigger and/or stronger than you are.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010
  9. snap-or-tap

    snap-or-tap White Belt

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    your insight is definitely awesome. I will definitely work through what you had advised. Thank you very very much.
     
  10. supersuk

    supersuk White Belt

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    You mean morote seoi nage on the bolded....

    Can't imagine many cross grip throws that causes your partner to go over your head like you described. Probably a morote seoi nage or a f'd up seoi otoshi.
     
  11. Darkslide632

    Darkslide632 Brown Belt

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    Yeah I did. Thanks.
     
  12. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    It was an eri seoi nage but you had the wrong sleeve
     
  13. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    You pretty much nailed it buddy.

    I'd add that it's virtually impossible to accidentally do a Hane Goshi. It's not the most natural body movement, so you're not likely to improv it, and also it's probably the most common incorrectly done Judo throw in tout there.
     

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