My take on the whole "Style makes fights" thing

[Scrappy145]

the "rock paper scissor" aspect of fighting...

I'm merely putting out my opinion, I'm not a coach or even close, just a fan, feel free to criticize, add to, disagree,agree, etc with my thoughts

So, the best way to beat;


Pressure fighters/power punches;
Best beaten by using the clinch and counter attacks. Wait patiently until he gases while getting your counters in the meantime...Time it right and "CRASH" your attacks with him (hit him hard when he is rushing in).

Counter Strikers;
Best beaten by speed, if you are constantly moving around the ring and throwing FAST shots, he wont be able to react quick enough, do not focus on power so much as SPEED, a powerful cross doesnt mean shit if he countered it with a better attack, like a kick to your ribs.

Clinchers;
Same strategy as against counter strikers, USE SPEED. The point is to look busier and land the most shots without being touched. If you throw power shots you may land a few but you'll still get caught in the spider's web eventually, and if thats what you're trying to avoid, use speed

Taller fighters;
aggressiveness, ALWAYS moving foward, and focusing on power punches. Almost every short fighter that is successful is known for his heavy hands and aggressiveness, overhand rights and body shots are your best friends for offense, good head movement and good blocking abilities are essential for defense. Think about it, how many short guys beat tall guys on decision? not many, how many short guys ko'd tall fighters? alot...When it's a short Vs tall fight...the taller fighter has the advantage in scoring points but the short fighter is usually more likely to get the Knockout.Leg kicks, and inside leg kicks are also great.

Shorter fighters;
Jabs, teeps, keeping the distance, knees, etc... The whole point is to keep him away so that you can pick him apart while he cant reach you.Body/Head kicks are advantageous.

Speed/Fast fighters;
Fighters that are always moving (Frankie Edgar is an example) and have really quick attacks are best beaten by attacking the legs to negate his elusive footwork, and staying close in hopes of landing a power shot. Fast fighters are usually not knockout kings.

 

[td82394]

Well, I think that the best way to beat someone taller is to take 'em down. And in my opinion to beat a counter-striker, I would throw convincing feint to trip 'em up and attack somewhere completely different. Like when Anderson Silva pulls his head back while stepping back, he leaves his front leg exposed for a tenth of a second, exposing himself to either a single leg or, because he's a southpaw, a lead leg kick. But everything else makes sense to me. But then again, you may be totally right and I might be a total dumbass.

 

[SpineBreaker]

Styles don't make fights. There could be a guy out there who teaches realistic Kung Fu, and would be able to beat all kinds of fighters easily, but he simply doesn't want to make a career of fighting.

Machida beat all kinds of fighters because he was taught some good, realistic things. And he lost to Shogun because he made a mistake, not because Muay Thai beats Shotokan karate.

 

[Scrappy145]

Styles don't make fights. There could be a guy out there who teaches realistic Kung Fu, and would be able to beat all kinds of fighters easily, but he simply doesn't want to make a career of fighting.

Machida beat all kinds of fighters because he was taught some good, realistic things. And he lost to Shogun because he made a mistake, not because Muay Thai beats Shotokan karate.

I wasnt talking about martial arts style, it was obvious in my post had you read it you would have seen it.

I was talking about the fact that even with different arts, each fighter still has a certain style he fights.

 

[Scrappy145]

Well, I think that the best way to beat someone taller is to take 'em down. And in my opinion to beat a counter-striker, I would throw convincing feint to trip 'em up and attack somewhere completely different. Like when Anderson Silva pulls his head back while stepping back, he leaves his front leg exposed for a tenth of a second, exposing himself to either a single leg or, because he's a southpaw, a lead leg kick. But everything else makes sense to me. But then again, you may be totally right and I might be a total dumbass.

feinting would be good for use against counter strikers, but power punches are usually slow, so if you follow up with a power punch you're taking a risk.
using feints in addition to good speed...


As for takedowns, I was referring to stand up only but with my limited knownledge of MMA i say that it's a good idea, since taller fighters seem to have better chances with those smaller gloves. Blocking is very helpful for shorter fighters, and with those small gloves blocking is really not too smart unless done briefly, because eventually a punch will make its way through a pocket since the gloves are so small and can easily fit between small gaps

 

[Connoisseur]

I actually disagree with alot of what you had to say.

Pressure fighters/power punches;
Best beaten by using the clinch and counter attacks. Wait patiently until he gases while getting your counters in the meantime...Time it right and "CRASH" your attacks with him (hit him hard when he is rushing in).

I'm assumming you mean inside fighters, like a Tyson/ Zambidis type guy, correct? In which case, you'd be wrong- the clinch is the opposite of where you wanna be against a powerful/ stocky guy, they can generate a ton of power from the clinch, and from close quarters. With both guys, it's been shown that if you keep them at range with straight punches, and use kicks (in the case of Zambidis), in a disciplined fashion, they both can be beaten.

Counter Strikers;
Best beaten by speed, if you are constantly moving around the ring and throwing FAST shots, he wont be able to react quick enough, do not focus on power so much as SPEED, a powerful cross doesnt mean shit if he countered it with a better attack, like a kick to your ribs.

Again, not entirely true. Edgar employed this kind of game against BJ, and despite all the movement, got countered and hit with the much more significant shots throughout most of the fight. Allowing a counterfighter to play their game is the opposite of what you want to do; there's a saying for fighting a good counterfighter- counter the counter. You feint, mix things up, draw the counterfighter in, and then counter their counter. It's what Shogun did to KO Lyoto- he noticed that Machida contered his leg kicks with a straight left, but his guard was down while he threw it; so Shogun developed a combo (overhand right after the kick) to counter Lyoto's counter, and it paid off.

Taller fighters;
aggressiveness, ALWAYS moving foward, and focusing on power punches. Almost every short fighter that is successful is known for his heavy hands and aggressiveness, overhand rights and body shots are your best friends for offense, good head movement and good blocking abilities are essential for defense. Think about it, how many short guys beat tall guys on decision? not many, how many short guys ko'd tall fighters? alot...When it's a short Vs tall fight...the taller fighter has the advantage in scoring points but the short fighter is usually more likely to get the Knockout.Leg kicks, and inside leg kicks are also great.

Again, I disagree. When you're constantly moving forward, you're losing part of your reach. Tyson did well because he covered his face and got inside using head movement and footwork, but he most certainly didn't move straight forward. You either get inside by using lateral movement, or you draw the taller guy in and attack him when he's coming forward; think Serra vs. GSP in their 1'st fight. Matt would wait for GSP to come in, then he'd attack as Georges was off balance and already committed.

 

[Da Speeit]

Connoisseur, do you take the pro classes at XC, or the am classes?

 

[lord_kader]

I actually disagree with alot of what you had to say.

Quote:
Pressure fighters/power punches;
Best beaten by using the clinch and counter attacks. Wait patiently until he gases while getting your counters in the meantime...Time it right and "CRASH" your attacks with him (hit him hard when he is rushing in).
I'm assumming you mean inside fighters, like a Tyson/ Zambidis type guy, correct? In which case, you'd be wrong- the clinch is the opposite of where you wanna be against a powerful/ stocky guy, they can generate a ton of power from the clinch, and from close quarters. With both guys, it's been shown that if you keep them at range with straight punches, and use kicks (in the case of Zambidis), in a disciplined fashion, they both can be beaten.

Quote:
Counter Strikers;
Best beaten by speed, if you are constantly moving around the ring and throwing FAST shots, he wont be able to react quick enough, do not focus on power so much as SPEED, a powerful cross doesnt mean shit if he countered it with a better attack, like a kick to your ribs.
Again, not entirely true. Edgar employed this kind of game against BJ, and despite all the movement, got countered and hit with the much more significant shots throughout most of the fight. Allowing a counterfighter to play their game is the opposite of what you want to do; there's a saying for fighting a good counterfighter- counter the counter. You feint, mix things up, draw the counterfighter in, and then counter their counter. It's what Shogun did to KO Lyoto- he noticed that Machida contered his leg kicks with a straight left, but his guard was down while he threw it; so Shogun developed a combo (overhand right after the kick) to counter Lyoto's counter, and it paid off.

Quote:
Taller fighters;
aggressiveness, ALWAYS moving foward, and focusing on power punches. Almost every short fighter that is successful is known for his heavy hands and aggressiveness, overhand rights and body shots are your best friends for offense, good head movement and good blocking abilities are essential for defense. Think about it, how many short guys beat tall guys on decision? not many, how many short guys ko'd tall fighters? alot...When it's a short Vs tall fight...the taller fighter has the advantage in scoring points but the short fighter is usually more likely to get the Knockout.Leg kicks, and inside leg kicks are also great.
Again, I disagree. When you're constantly moving forward, you're losing part of your reach. Tyson did well because he covered his face and got inside using head movement and footwork, but he most certainly didn't move straight forward. You either get inside by using lateral movement, or you draw the taller guy in and attack him when he's coming forward; think Serra vs. GSP in their 1'st fight. Matt would wait for GSP to come in, then he'd attack as Georges was off balance and already committed.

i was just about to post something exactly similar =P everything TS said was kind of playing into the opponents hand...

move forward against a taller opponent? you said yourself for when fighting shorter fighters you need to keep range right? thats b/c when he is coming forward you can hit him sooner than he can hit you.

so if you are fighting somebody taller that means you dont want to be moving forward where you are going to get hit first. you want the taller fighter to attack, get just out of range, and THEN get in close and pressure him. for example, once a tall guy steps in with a jab he is closing distance. if you wait for it and then slip that jab you can move inside easier b/c he closed the distance

 

[Scrappy145]

i was just about to post something exactly similar =P everything TS said was kind of playing into the opponents hand...

move forward against a taller opponent? you said yourself for when fighting shorter fighters you need to keep range right? thats b/c when he is coming forward you can hit him sooner than he can hit you.

so if you are fighting somebody taller that means you dont want to be moving forward where you are going to get hit first. you want the taller fighter to attack, get just out of range, and THEN get in close and pressure him. for example, once a tall guy steps in with a jab he is closing distance. if you wait for it and then slip that jab you can move inside easier b/c he closed the distance

You move foward to close the distant
You'll be expected to take a shot or two going in but thats the sacrifice you have to make to get inside your range and away from his.

countering and using timing against a taller opponent is an excellent way to fight as well, but if you try to counter against a taller opponent i doubt he will fall for it the whole fight.

i guess thats where mixing it up comes into play

 

[Connoisseur]

Connoisseur, do you take the pro classes at XC, or the am classes?

I'm not in Vegas right now, but i'm from there so when i'm back for the summers I train there. Normally i'd go nights because it fit better w/ my work schedule, I'd normally do jits w/ Melansen, Boxing w/ Frazier, & Muay Thai w/ Kampmann or Joey Vanier, sometimes Kui. I'd also do wrestling occasionally, but only beginner's wrestling because I'd always get slammed in intermediate/ advanced classes (i'm very injury prone so I avoid anything that involves getting slammed).

 

[Kaiten Geri]

It's what Shogun did to KO Lyoto- he noticed that Machida contered his leg kicks with a straight left, but his guard was down while he threw it; so Shogun developed a combo (overhand right after the kick) to counter Lyoto's counter, and it paid off.

Off-topic, but since I just wrote about it somewhere else... He didn't throw a kick, he just feinted minimally. It would have never worked if he hadn't broken Machida's spirit before and pressured him into being less cautious of a fighter. He also had the advantage of Machida telegraphing that punch - the knee + gyaku zuki was an old friend by then. Pathetic.

Given it came quite literally over a strike, I don't see what guard would have saved him from an overhand in a crazy, unorthodox angle like that, though...

 

[td82394]

Here's what I think:

The Jackrabbit- Good examples are Frankie Edgar and Dominick Cruz. They move around a lot and use good boxing to outstrike their opponent. The best thing to do (I think) is to chop 'em down. Take away their legs.

Chop Down- Good examples are Pat Barry and Forest Griffin. They just wreck their opponent's legs. The best way to neutralize leg kicks and kicks in general is to tie your opponent up.

Clinch Fighters- Good examples are Randy Couture and the lamentably late Evan Tanner. When they ARE on the feet, good grapplers try to tie up superior strikers to neutralize them and then proceed to use punches (dirty boxing), elbows, and knees (both are muay thai). The best way to counter this is to simply dance around them.

Stalkers- Crocop and Shogun are good examples. They try to swarm you and beat you up. The best way to counter this is to either let them inside and tie up, or not let them get inside which is much harder (ask Muhammad Ali).

Counter-Punchers- Anderson Silva is good at this. On a good dayhe makes people miss and he makes them pay dearly. The best way to counter this is to confuse them.

Unorthodox- Lyoto, GSP, and Jon Jones are good at this. They make a practice of using ninja moves to confuse their opponents. Or in Machida's case, simple use a style no one's seen before to befuddle foes. The best way to counter this is to crowd them. Ninja moves require a lot of room.

And that, as far as stand-up goes, is my take.

 

[Da Speeit]

I'm not in Vegas right now, but i'm from there so when i'm back for the summers I train there. Normally i'd go nights because it fit better w/ my work schedule, I'd normally do jits w/ Melansen, Boxing w/ Frazier, & Muay Thai w/ Kampmann or Joey Vanier, sometimes Kui. I'd also do wrestling occasionally, but only beginner's wrestling because I'd always get slammed in intermediate/ advanced classes (i'm very injury prone so I avoid anything that involves getting slammed).

That's whatsup, ive been a couple of times (just to spectate, i havent trained in years), but this whore i know trains there.
She speaks as if she's a goddamn Abu Dhabi champion and runs a goddamn Muay Thai gym, but ive exposed her as being full of shit multiple times.

She's been taking classes there for a while and i was just curious as to the reality of the situation.

Brandi ring any bells?

 

[Da Speeit]

To keep this thread on topic, Blastoise ALWAY beats Charizard, unless you use a dire hit and X Defense.

 

[SpineBreaker]

I wasnt talking about martial arts style, it was obvious in my post had you read it you would have seen it.

I was talking about the fact that even with different arts, each fighter still has a certain style he fights.

Well, that's what everyone else means when they say "styles make fights".

"His style just doesn't match up well to his". Stuff like that.

Off-topic, but since I just wrote about it somewhere else... He didn't throw a kick, he just feinted minimally. It would have never worked if he hadn't broken Machida's spirit before and pressured him into being less cautious of a fighter. He also had the advantage of Machida telegraphing that punch - the knee + gyaku zuki was an old friend by then. Pathetic.

Given it came quite literally over a strike, I don't see what guard would have saved him from an overhand in a crazy, unorthodox angle like that, though...

Oh Christ, stop insulting Machida. "Broke his spirit"?

If you know about a gyaku-zuki, a real one that should knock someone out, you know that you need to keep your back foot planted into the ground and push off from it. Machida always pivots on that foot, putting too much rotation into that punch when it needs to shoot straight in. He missed, which is bad enough, but he wouldn't have fallen over if he had been stable on both feet. It wasn't because Machida has no heart, he just had a flaw in his technique.

 

[Too Defensive**]

Well, I think that the best way to beat someone taller is to take 'em down. And in my opinion to beat a counter-striker, I would throw convincing feint to trip 'em up and attack somewhere completely different. when Anderson Silva pulls his head back while stepping back, he leaves his front leg exposed for a tenth of a second, exposing himself to either a single leg or, because he's a southpaw, a lead leg kick. But everything else makes sense to me. But then again, you may be totally right and I might be a total dumbass.

This.

Also, you say use speed. Speed is not somehthing you can turn on and off like a light switch. Either you have it or you don't. What if you were coaching Kimbo or Tank? Would you tell them to just "use speed"? Better advise would be to feint and counter the counter.

 

[Too Defensive**]

I actually disagree with alot of what you had to say.



I'm assumming you mean inside fighters, like a Tyson/ Zambidis type guy, correct? In which case, you'd be wrong- the clinch is the opposite of where you wanna be against a powerful/ stocky guy, they can generate a ton of power from the clinch, and from close quarters. With both guys, it's been shown that if you keep them at range with straight punches, and use kicks (in the case of Zambidis), in a disciplined fashion, they both can be beaten.

This as well. Very Dangerous

 

[Too Defensive**]

Taller fighters;
aggressiveness, ALWAYS moving foward, and focusing on power punches. Almost every short fighter that is successful is known for his heavy hands and aggressiveness, overhand rights and body shots are your best friends for offense, good head movement and good blocking abilities are essential for defense. Think about it, how many short guys beat tall guys on decision? not many, how many short guys ko'd tall fighters? alot...When it's a short Vs tall fight...the taller fighter has the advantage in scoring points but the short fighter is usually more likely to get the Knockout.Leg kicks, and inside leg kicks are also great.

Way waaaaaaaaaaay off here.

Pretty decent thread tho.

 

[barnowl]

AS to the comments about what the phrase " Styles make Fights" means goes back to boxing. It refers originally to what has become the 3 way match-up in boxing ( Used to 5 then 4 now is just 3). The cycle basically goes boxer > slugger > swarmer > boxer ........ round and round. The idea was that fights between same styles tend to be boring, but fights between styles were always exciting becuase it was either going to be a one side beat down that was fast, or an underdog beating the odds.

Only after the first UFC did it start to mean karate VS TKD or MT vs Judo type thing. So the TS was on track and on topic.

 

[barnowl]

Double post