my "project" for the summer: the butterfly guard

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by blanko, Mar 10, 2008.

  1. blanko

    blanko Guest

    i have no butterfly guard, never really felt the need to have one. I was always using the x and 1/2 guard when i do no gi. But i have this supursing new interest in the butterfly guard. Who here are buttefly guard guys and what tips do you have? Thanks!
     
  2. hayliks

    hayliks Banned Banned

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    learn the hook flip, love the hook flip
     
  3. J Storm**

    J Storm** Banned Banned

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    butterfly guard FTW for short legged guys
     
  4. Sherdog_Mutt

    Sherdog_Mutt Purple Belt

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    I'm not a "butterfly guard guy" per se but I have been working a lot on my butterfly recently. I'm surprised that a half-guard/x-guard player like yourself haven't incorporated it earlier. Butterfly really links well to those 2 guards.
     
  5. masada555

    masada555 Orange Belt

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    Make sure you get your initial posture right:

    1. hips back, head forward
    2. head in superior position - under or alongside theirs
    3. elbows in

    It's almost like turtling, but flipped upside down.

    Then it's up to you what game you want to play. I am a big fan of the armdrag game. Many more august personages than I have explained that game elsewhere on the internets. You can also watch Marcelo on youtube. If you're more into the hook flip game, watch Leo Santos or JJ Machado.

    Have fun!
     
  6. blanko

    blanko Guest

    i know.. it's sort of surprising for myself.. I just never played much butterfly... is the butterfly guard hard on your knees? i have a friend that says it is..
     
  7. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I have been playing butterfly guard primarily for the past six months or so. It is a total blast to play, one of the most fun guards. Here are my big tips, things I wish people had told me.

    Number 1: It should be called the "wrestling guard," not the butterfly guard. I can't emphasize this enough. You do not play it like other guards, laying back, feet forward. You are not pulling your opponent on top of you. You are sitting up, hips back, head forward.

    Number 2: It is all about establishing a dominant clinch. That's what the game is all about -- keeping your legs back while fighting for an overhook, underhook, or armdrag. You do not really put your hooks into play unless you have such a dominant clinch established. Your hooks do surprisingly little in fact -- the game is all in fighting for the right clinch, your hooks just come in to finish the job.

    Number 3: The hook sweep. Learn it, love it. The foundation for all that is butterfly guard. Key point with the hook sweep is you MUST fall on your side, not your back. Done right, it's almost unstoppable.

    Number 4: This guard works because of the alternation between the hook sweep and regular takedowns, the knee tap and ankle pick. Know that you can hit these off any good clinch (i.e., underhook/armdrag/overhook) with ease. If the guy is pulling back, lunge into him with a regular takedown. If he pushes forward, as he usually will, then hook sweep. This dynamic sets up everything. He can't keep his base back, and he can't keep his base forward. Basically he is in a world of difficulty once you get a good clinch.

    Basically I keep my hips back and as the guy reaches in to grab my legs, I look to get the armdrag, underhook, or overhook. I keep fighting till I get one of these clinches. If he grips my pants, I break the grip and attack the arm -- he cannot be allowed to control your legs. Then I attack from there, usually with the hook sweep, following with a reverse hook sweep/x-guard.

    Have fun! Don't worry about submissions, they are icing on the cake. The game is all about the hook flip, the arm drag, and the reverse hook flip (or x-guard if you want to substitute that for the reverse hook flip).

    There are a couple slightly different types of butterfly guard that deviate a bit from this game. The double underhook butterfly guard allows you to roll on your back, and the collar-grip sitting guard consists mostly of collar-dragging and cross-choking your opponent. But that's spreading out -- the absolute core of the game consists of fighting for the underhook and hook sweeping the guy.

    Also, butterfly guard is not hard on your knees at all as far as I can tell, and one of its biggest virtues is that it is extremely hard to leglock a butterfly guard player. I don't know why you would hurt your knees playing butterfly guard, unless you were playing it wrong -- pulling the guy on top of you and on top of your knees might do it. Like I say though, the guy's weight shouldn't be on top of you if you do it right. I suppose the double underhook game might put more stress on your knees.
     
  8. Sherdog_Mutt

    Sherdog_Mutt Purple Belt

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    I've never found butterfly to be that hard on my knees and I've used it against some really big guys (300+ pounds). Zankou has some really good tips. Like everyone else has said, it's all about the hook sweep. Almost everything builds off of that sweep and the threat of it.
     
  9. BCarr

    BCarr Blue Belt

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    I've also been playing a lot more with it lately and I really enjoy it. Zankou made some very good points...enjoy it and don't worry about some initial mishaps.
     
  10. Deloitte

    Deloitte Blue Belt

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    Link by any chance?
     
  11. ooitzoo

    ooitzoo Purple Belt

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    Been an obsession of mine for a while; worked well whilst I was in the beginner class but moving to Advanced has opened my eyes (its not really that easy.)

    One thing i have trouble with is getting to butterfly (or closed guard) when we start. Usually we start in a butt scoot position (if mat space is available then we start standing). I have real difficulty getting to a dominant position from butt scoot/knees/even standing.
     
  12. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    How are you trying to control the arms to get into guard? That's the key to pulling guard right --- you have to control the arms first, then pull guard.
     
  13. BCarr

    BCarr Blue Belt

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    I also like to pick a side while I'm in the butt-scoot. I can work an angle, play back and forth with my foot in and out of the pocket (full butterfly vs. kind of a half guard) and look for some angled sweeps or ankle picks.
     
  14. ooitzoo

    ooitzoo Purple Belt

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    we generally start in butt scoot so I am worried about lunging forward to grab the arms (want to avoid the guard of more advanced/experienced opponents) so I wait for them to try and control my gi pant before working the hook in/controlling one or both arms.
     
  15. BCarr

    BCarr Blue Belt

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    Just scoot your butt and dart your feet in between his legs while grabbing for his arms. Most people have difficulty concentrating on two areas at the same time....so while defending his sleeves, you should be able to scoot your feet in deep between his legs for butterfly.
     
  16. kiratha

    kiratha White Belt

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    just a blue belt myself but like Zankou I have a few points

    The hooks sweep:
    1. : Many people say you fall at 45 degress. While it may be true, for me I had to imagine myself sweeping at 90 degress.EVERYBODY goes too much backwards when they learn the sweep. Nobody goes too much the side. Is it even possible?!

    2. Grabbing the belt. When I started I wrongly thought I had to use the grib to lift him with my arm. What made a difference for me was to think if the grip as an anchor to stabilize everything on that side. You have to glue him to you, so that when you move-> he moves

    3. Turning his upper body in the sweep: I had no wrestling backgrund so maybe thats why I didn't get this to start with. If you dont it is a lot easier for him to just post his free leg out and you end up just lifting him and putting him down again a few inches to the side. For me a difference came from thinking I had to put his far shoulder on the mat and " drive" into the near shoulder that I had underhooked
     
  17. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    You said it exactly right Kiratha. It's hard to convey how much it is a wrestling/upper body game, and how little the hook does in the process.

    Not only do I go to the side, I visualize myself rolling under the guy a bit. Click on the video clip in this link for volume 5 to see an awesome new clip from Robson, a deity, showing how to do the hook flip with max power.

    http://www.groundfighter.com/details/prodid/266.html

    Notice how he jams the arm under the guy's body and virtually rotates under him. That is the way to truly rock the hook sweep. It obliterates the opponent's base, and gives you huge power. Pulling the guy onto you is a substitute for upper body control, and substituting for upper body control is a sucky shortcut.
     
  18. ooitzoo

    ooitzoo Purple Belt

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    how do i prevent them from pulling me into guard?
     
  19. sha

    sha Geekjitsu Black Belt

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    A good tip I picked up from Stephen Kesting's instructional on the butterfly guard is driving with your non hooking leg when you do the sweep. You have to push of your foot like you wanted to come up to all fours to finish the sweep. This is especially useful in no gi because it can be hard to "glue" your body to your oponent's, and their balance will be harder to break.
     
  20. BCarr

    BCarr Blue Belt

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    I'm sorry...I think I misunderstood. Are you both sitting feet to feet?

    And a good note from Kiratha and Zankou....people do tend to fall so flat when attempting a hook sweep. My coach even has problems sweeping me when because of my base. He really has to get under me.

    You've really got to remember that you want to sweep him over his head/shoulder. You should not be trying to knock him to his side.
     

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