My Darce SUCKS!

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by ZuZitsu**, Aug 4, 2010.

  1. ZuZitsu**

    ZuZitsu** Purple Belt

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    Ive never had particualrly good "squeezing" submissions, like guillotines...but my darce is down right terrible!

    We worked on it last night and I could just feel that I didnt have it (aside from my partner telling me it wasnt tight) but I was definately reaching deep enough, had it sealed properly etc. It just wasnt right.

    My instructor told me that I might be reaching TOO deep (from a front headlock position) and losing control of my opponents head (with my chest)

    Any tips for me?? Something that may have made it click for you? Great videos you know of?

    Edit: last night we were doing the anaconda choke but I suck at them both
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2010
  2. mesa

    mesa Orange Belt

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    I wouldn't call the Darce a squeezing submission. Once your arms are locked, it's the pressure of your weight driving his shoulder into his carotid, and your forearm bone cutting up into his other one. So you don't need to squeeze your arms at all to finish the choke...once it's locked that's good enough.

    This is a good video from the front headlock/sprawl position. This is how i've always done it.

     
  3. BatBoyJG

    BatBoyJG Brown Belt

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    Terrible video, imo. Recently I attended 3 separate Jeff Glover seminars (no I didn't really pay for 3 seminars) And had a lot of 1 on 1 time with him, and he stressed that you shouldn't attempt the darce from the front headlock, as you can't get as much depth as when you side by side.
     
  4. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    That's interesting. How does he prefer to do it?
     
  5. namdogg59

    namdogg59 Yellow Belt

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    I have a terrible d'arce as well, but I have a nasty guillotine. Gotta find a way to fix my d'arce as well.
     
  6. HardEight

    HardEight Blue Belt

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    My guess is he is referring to something like this.



    But i don't believe the video posted earlier is a "terrible", he basically ends up finishing from the same position. All he is doing is showing an alternative route to getting there.
     
  7. Hellboy31

    Hellboy31 Brown Belt

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    Glover's got some awesome Darce chokes.. I'm not sure if I would give up mount to sink one in (like he does a lot) but who am I to question someone at that level.

    TS Do you have the same problems with anaconda chokes?
     
  8. BatBoyJG

    BatBoyJG Brown Belt

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    Yeah he used the bar darce analogy. I was rolling with him, and I think that I tried it from the front headlock, and he stopped me and explained to me why he likes going to the side.
    I don't find the first video very practical, there's really no way that I am going to be able to hold a guy's head down with just one hand like that, also do you really expect a guy to fall over like that just by pulling his elbow? I think that he'll put up a little more of a fight.
     
  9. KahleyTriangles

    KahleyTriangles Blue Belt

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    Its just something you have to work on. Personally I started taking privates just to work on collar chokes and D'arces and its one of my favorite things to do now. There's so many things that go into chokes in general that really you just have to drill drill drill and there's no way getting around it.

    Some people get it right away, some don't, but once you add GOOD collar chokes (not just lazy collar chokes that you "pretend" to do to set up an armbar, but actual holy crap I can't tap fast enough because my head is gonna pop off choke) and darce chokes, it really opens up your game, allowing you to transition to attacking arms, moving into better positions, etc.
     
  10. ZuZitsu**

    ZuZitsu** Purple Belt

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    I have more problems with the anaconda than I do the Darce but I want to improve them both. The darce is a nasty choke and Id like to have it as a high % weapon.
     
  11. HardEight

    HardEight Blue Belt

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    True, I don't know how realistic that sweep would be, but you always have the gable grip crank method that seems to position guys pretty well, even if they are struggling.
    Like so...

     
  12. Qtip inspector

    Qtip inspector Blue Belt

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    if you do it from the front headlock, cut the corner, establish "oklahoma" then use bread cutter to turn him over , then attack. for me, the easiest darce attack is from side mount. there should be videos of these. and 1 guy already said it. its not about squeezing your arms, its using your body weight to push his shoulder into his neck
     
  13. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Oh man. This thread had my name all over it!

    After you read this, take a peek here:

    Brabo Choke Homework | BJJ Instructional Videos | Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu | Aesopian

    With most head-and-arm chokes there are three pressures that make the choke work. This is the same with the Darce/Brabo. Assume he's on his side, you have the choke locked in, and everything is in place with your arms.

    1st pressure: Your chest pressing down onto his shoulder, cutting off blood flow on his left carotid artery.
    2nd pressure: Your left tricep pulling in, keeping his chin and head tucked down (the equivalent of pulling the head down in a normal Triangle choke)
    3rd pressure: Your right forearm cutting off his right carotid artery.

    As for the actual finishing position, people prefer different things. Some people prefer to sprawl, and some people prefer to bring both knees in tight. I like to bring my right knee close, and if I do sprawl, I sprawl my left leg. If you sprawl with both legs or your right leg, there are always flexible people that can find a way to re-half-guard. I like to take a big inhale as I squeeze, which expands the chest even more.

    Some people like to dip the left shoulder, which I used to do, and sometimes still do. This has an effect of forcing your right forearm up into the artery kind of like a piano wire. This can tweak the neck also. If I'm finishing from the standard position, I like to lift my right elbow as I squeeze, which turns the head and makes for a very hard choke, also with pressure on the neck. Paulo Thiago did this when he fought Mike Swick, and Swick went to sleep very fast.

    The "Marce" finish is very strong as well:



    This one has a ton of leverage, but I find it best to go for this finish only when an opponent manages to fight up to their knees during the typical side finish. There are setups where finishing off the back/side is more appropriate, but right now finishing the choke seems like what you're more interested in. There are hundreds of setups you can learn later. It's really important if you're finishing off the back to remember the same 3 pressures, and NOT to bring your opponent right on top of you. Keep them on their hip if you can, and walk into them as you squeeze.

    The newest "in vogue" Darce finish is stepping over with the body side leg to finish or even stepping over and finishing from the full mount:



    SKIP to 2:30

    This has an advantage because the Darce has exploded in popularity over the last few years. A lot of people at high levels are getting good at escaping and breaking the grips. By finishing from the mount, you give the opponent nowhere to escape to, and if you do lose the choke, you are in a great spot. You probably won't lose the choke though, as stepping over tends to put that nasty head twist into the choke that really cuts off the blood. I saw a lot of attempted Darces at ADCC 2009, but Rafael Lovato Jr. was the only guy to actually finish one. Coincidentally, it looked like he began to step to the full mount as his opponent tapped.The first time I saw this done was when Cobrinha tapped Magno at the NoGi Worlds in 2007. Cobrinha didn't go to full mount (both knees down), but he did step over and finished quick.

    I'll post again with some more details a little later, but hopefully this will help some. Everyone talks about how there are SO many setups for the Darce, and they are right. People don't generally talk about how many finishing options there are. Even with the typical finish from side control, there are different ways of squeezing and applying pressure. As a rule, for positions, I prefer to start with the normal finish, and if they power up to their knees, I just let them and do the "Marce" type finish, and if they go to their back I like to step over and finish from the full mount.

    As for the Anaconda, I'm not as good and I'm working on it a lot right now.

    I'll say keep trying also. When I first tried this, it felt so unnatural and I hated the Darce choke. It became my best submission by far. It will get more comfortable, I promise.
     
  14. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    One detail I got from a Ryan Hall video that I love: You need to switch your angle 180 degrees to finish. To put the darce on, that Glover video shows exactly how to do it -- you put you ear to the guy's shoulder, like you are trying to hear something his shoulder is saying, then cinch it tight, hand ont he bicep. But to finish, you then twist exactly the opposite direction, going to a "guillotine" position with the lock still on (I often like to throw my leg over his, like a half guard, so he can't roll).

    The tap comes on ridiculously fast if you do this, compared to sinking down and just squeezing, which is how it's often done. Try it. As soon as you switch hips going back the other way, your weight pushes his head down and your forearm comes up, akin to the "crunch" movement a good guillotine should have. If it's anywhere near on, your opponent will tap frantically. And if it's not, you can just switch hips back and try to cinch it tighter before repeating.

    I love this detail, and major props to Ryan Hall for putting it out. The Darce is my favorite nogi choke, as it is for many people. But particularly for those, like myself, who have long, thin, strong arms, it is deadly.
     
  15. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I see Drew Foster ninja-posted. This section from Aesopian's discussion is what I am talking about -- an extremely fast and powerful end to the choke, elicits frantic tapping:

    "Some people like to dip the left shoulder, which I used to do, and sometimes still do. This has an effect of forcing your right forearm up into the artery kind of like a piano wire. This can tweak the neck also. If I'm finishing from the standard position, I like to lift my right elbow as I squeeze, which turns the head and makes for a very hard choke, also with pressure on the neck. Paulo Thiago did this when he fought Mike Swick, and Swick went to sleep very fast."

    The virtue of this finish is that it's just kind of mindless. Once you have the grip, it comes on with appalling force, and doesn't require much technique.
     
  16. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Spangler is the shit and has a very strong Darce choke. I believe it's one of his favorite submissions. I don't know if he learned it from Drysdale, but Drysdale has one of the best Darce/Brabo games out there as well.
     
  17. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Bleah, I see Drew Foster posted a Ryan Hall vid as well, basically preempting my posts entirely. Well, now you have it ... I like what he calls the "in vogue" finish, as shown by Ryan Hall, which basically puts you in a guillotine position, and which can lead to a mounted guillotine finish. It's rad, with tons of advantages. Learn it.
     
  18. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    I have arms just like yours. As for the finish you like, I first saw it from Baret Yoshida and Joel Tudor. Both seem to do it a lot. I was only taught it one time formally, and I honestly never liked it, just because it never felt that comfortable for me. It is a really strong finish though, and if you have long legs you can do it from closed guard even.
     
  19. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Dam straight! I think of it like the Darce equivalent to the Marcelo style elbow-lift Guillotine.
     
  20. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    To me, the important thing is not the legs, but rather your body's switching to the guillotine-type orientation. Once you do that, it doesn't matter much whether you throw a leg over his leg (which is what I usually do), do nothing at all, or follow him all the way over into a mount. Just like an arm-in guillotine (which this really is a similar to, except that the arm is crossed, which it is for a great arm-in also), all those positions flow together, and having closed guard is unnecessary.

    I typically like to throw a leg over just because if he tries to defend by going flat to his back, I will automatically follow into a full mount darce, rather than having to transition from N/S into a mounted darce or North/South choke.
     

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