my analysis on WRESTLING

[gjb0429]

Hey guys.

A lot of people are always asking the main difference between BJJ and Wrestling.

Most of the time people will tell you that wrestlers have better takedowns and can dictate where the fight goes. And that BJJ has submissions and the ability to fight from all angles etc.

While this is very true, I feel that wrestling has even more advantages then just takedowns. There is just something about wreslters. They just refuse to be on the bottom. Try putting a good wrestler on his back. Before you know it he will be back to his feet or on top of you!!
Here is my analysis of benefits of wrestling:

1) Takedowns
2) Takedown defense
3) Refusal to be on the bottom, very good at getting back up
4) WRESTLERS ARE GREAT IN THE INTERMEDIATE POSITIONS!! They are so good at scrambling to get on top. You know what im talking about, say two guys are scrambling and no one has established a grappling postion. THAT HAPPENS SO MUCH IN WRESTLING. Ive watched wrestling matches and there are so many scrambles because u cant just pull guard when ur on bottom. Theres always these intermediate positions when they are grappling fighting for position. Bjj does not cover this crucial area.
4.5) RIDING AND STAYING ON TOP. Wrestlers are phenomenal at staying on top once they are on top. U can try to sweep them but they will just keep comming and use holds to keep u on bottom.
5) Aggresiveness and Explosiveness
6) COnditioning


I feel like so many MMA schools just teach BJJ and minimal wrestling. I think wrestling should be a staple of any mma academy and they should have live wrestling rolling

The main two benefits of wrestling are TAKEDOWNS/TD DEFENSE, and SCRAMBLING/INTERMEDIATE POSITIONS.


Needless to say, I have realized that if you combine BJJ and wrestling you will be an aswesome grappler. And Im not talking about bullshit wrestling classes at mma schools where all u learn is takedowns. Its so neccessary to learn the scrambling and intermediate positioning parts.



It is harder to learn wrestling when ur 21 like me because it is mainly taught at high school level. But I will do whatever it takes. Ill go to a wrestling club at my school.


I know that was the biggest verbal diarrhea ADD thread (Im sorry i just drank 3 cups of coffee). But please someone who knows about wrestling feel me on this one. Where do u learn all those scrambling moves. Any thoughts?

 

[agaskill]

Hey guys.

They just refuse to be on the bottom. Try putting a good wrestler on his back.

I agree with everything you wrote, except for the part about refusing to be on bottom. I think that was my biggest weakness transitioning from wrestling to BJJ. If you are not comfortable and calm on your back you can be in a lot of trouble, which I was! Other than that I think you nailed it.

 

[HomerPlata]

Not being overcritical on purpose, but you're kinda just stating what everyone else already knows.

 

[bnosam]

Not being overcritical on purpose, but you're kinda just stating what everyone else already knows.

That's what I thought when I read this

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

The main difference between bjj and wrestling is that they are trained under completely different rule sets with completely different objectives, and that modern sport wrestling doesn't teach submission holds.

 

[oyaji poi]

I thought it was a good post. The TD/defense part was kind of obvious. More time is spent on the different bottom positions instead.

But the scramble, or the "intermediate positions" is a good point. Mainly because I've been thinking of it lately. Getting on top is always taught at a technical sweep, the scramble and control is rarely taught. Maybe because of the grips? Most sweeps originated in gi-BJJ, which relies to a great extent on grips. Maybe no-gi could focus more on learning the intermediate positions from wrestling rather than the gi-based sweeps of BJJ?

 

[fourfif**]

I agree with everything you wrote, except for the part about refusing to be on bottom. I think that was my biggest weakness transitioning from wrestling to BJJ. If you are not comfortable and calm on your back you can be in a lot of trouble, which I was! Other than that I think you nailed it.

you're both right. I choose to be on bottom alot now but really only so I can learn to get back on top, and like you said, to learn to be comfortable there.

 

[HomerPlata]

I thought it was a good post. The TD/defense part was kind of obvious. More time is spent on the different bottom positions instead.

But the scramble, or the "intermediate positions" is a good point. Mainly because I've been thinking of it lately. Getting on top is always taught at a technical sweep, the scramble and control is rarely taught. Maybe because of the grips? Most sweeps originated in gi-BJJ, which relies to a great extent on grips. Maybe no-gi could focus more on learning the intermediate positions from wrestling rather than the gi-based sweeps of BJJ?

Can "scrambling" be taught, or is it just something that you pick up whilst rolling?

 

[bnosam]

Can "scrambling" be taught, or is it just something that you pick up whilst rolling?

It can be described but, it's more so instinctual. The best scramble I had was when I was being kimura'd from north south and he moved and I burst up and he fell back and we both scrambled. I ended up having my leg over the back of his neck and his arm in straight arm lock. I ended up tapping him like 5 seconds later. He was like "what the fuck" :icon_chee

 

[fourfif**]

modern sport wrestling doesn't teach submission holds.

sure they too. I literally subbed a dude with a chicken wing once in like 1992 because I felt no need to beat the breaks off him and just wanted to prove a point. And don't get me started on the wrestler's guillotine (twister), banana split (electric chair), front head and arm, pinning head and arm with the arm across the face, etc, etc.

they don't teach them with the objective of showing you how to put people to sleep or break their arm but well all know, and have always known what some of these holds/positions can do.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

sure they too. I literally subbed a dude with a chicken wing once in like 1992 because I felt no need to beat the breaks off him and just wanted to prove a point. And don't get me started on the wrestler's guillotine (twister), banana split (electric chair), front head and arm, pinning head and arm with the arm across the face, etc, etc.

they don't teach them with the objective of showing you how to put people to sleep or break their arm but well all know, and have always known what some of these holds/positions can do.

What I meant is that they are not taught as submissions. The goal in wrestling is not to finish with a submission hold. I learned all those moves too when I was wrestling, but you don't train them in wrestling to submit someone, you train them to turn the person to his back and pin him (and if you hurt him in the process that's his problem). Everybody knows that many holds in wrestling have submission applications, but you don't train the proper angle to break the arm with a hammerlock, and you don't learn to choke someone out with a cement mixer.

Wrestling is trained purely as a sport and not as a martial art. When I was wrestling, nobody looked at it as a self defense style of a base for MMA. You were just doing a sport, like you did football in the fall or lacrosse in the spring.

 

[fourfif**]

I know that was the biggest verbal diarrhea ADD thread (Im sorry i just drank 3 cups of coffee).

lmfao

But please someone who knows about wrestling feel me on this one. Where do u learn all those scrambling moves. Any thoughts?

I think you touched on it when talking about wrestlers never wanting to be on their backs in general (somewhat true) but in wrestling it's obviously 100% fact. And so every movement, every grip, bump, roll, post, breakdown, is mostly funk and scramble, with some basic technical elements thrown in there, but imo you can't teach alot of that stuff.

 

[fourfif**]

What I meant is that they are not taught as submissions. The goal in wrestling is not to finish with a submission hold. I learned all those moves too when I was wrestling, but you don't train them in wrestling to submit someone, you train them to turn the person to his back and pin him (and if you hurt him in the process that's his problem). Everybody knows that many holds in wrestling have submission applications, but you don't train the proper angle to break the arm with a hammerlock, and you don't learn to choke someone out with a cement mixer.

yeah, so we can agree they teach em, just not with the objective of using them as submission holds. well, it depends on the coach. the way one of my coaches taught the guillotine and banana split (and others) it was definitely to make your opponent quit.

Wrestling is trained purely as a sport and not as a martial art. When I was wrestling, nobody looked at it as a self defense style of a base for MMA. You were just doing a sport, like you did football in the fall or lacrosse in the spring.

maybe it's just the schools we went to or something, I dunno, but in my school everybody knew the wrestlers could fight. probably because we did, and it was obvious why we would be getting the dubbyas.

 

[Grappler111]

WRESTLING???

Today Wrestling (FILA) is :

Freestyle Wrestling.
Greco-Roman Wrestling.
Grappling No-Gi.
Grappling Gi.
Combat Grappling (self defense and amateur MMA similar to combat sambo without gi).
Pankration : amateur, self defense and pro (without gloves and head butt allowed).
Beach Wrestling.
Belt Wrestling.
Folkstyle Wrestling.
Catch Wrestling.
Luta Livre Esportiva.
Traditional Wrestling (> 200 styles).

 

[MMA junkie]

One aspect of Wrestling that hasn't been discussed is that Wrestlers are forced to compete. Most BJJ practitioners over here don't compete and those that do, it's not nearly as often as Wrestlers do in HS. See: Dual meets every week and tournaments on the weekends.

 

[Knuckles69]

I think that the original analysis is a bit too simplistic. There are technical scrambles in BJJ too, but the objective of the scramble is different. In wrestling the sole objective of the scramble is to not end up on bottom where as in BJJ the transitions that produce scrambles could be to get guard (half, closed, spider, butterfly, DLR, X, 50/50,etc), side control (traditional, heavy, judo, etc), knee on belly, mount (full, 3/4, s, etc), back (both hooks in, one hook in hip control, turtle, no hooks, etc).

I think the simpler the objective the more time you have to explore the variations that fall within that objective. It's really specialization. Wrestling and Judo have a more specific specialization than BJJ IMO.

 

[knoxpk]

Scrambling can be taught but some of the funkier scrambles are more body awareness.

There are several drill in wrestling designed to get you good at scrambling.

One example is the switch/reswitch scramble drill, also a scramble is usually a chain of individual techniques and not some random action. For instance switch, hop over, sit out, "cowboy", spin behind, granby etc..

Anyway, I digress here is a nice little scramble drill, you can try it but you have to resist the urge to pull guard.

YouTube - Barry Davis Wrestling Scramble Drill


A last topic, is the bottom refs position, another good position for well trained folkstyle wrestlers.

Scrambling is not always in refs either, some of the best scrambles happen from the feet.
Shot: front headlock: peek out: Switch: Reswitch: hop over: Granby roll. Just imagine that sequence with each move being the opposite wrester..so I shoot you grab a front headlock, you peek out I switch etc..and yada...

 

[bora y]

firstly, fourfif, 1992 is far from modern.

i jest.

of all the grappling styles, i definately think catch and some folk wrestling are the coolest.
[edit: i meant of all the wrestling styles. i'm still a bjj-head]
i've been in turkey for 3 weeks, and i come every summer, during which time my interest peaks again. gotta say tho, i do hate oil wrestling.

 

[fourfif**]

firstly, fourfif, 1992 is far from modern.

don't hate on my squad brah.

 

[jheers11]

I agree we do all know the differences in wrestling and jiu jitsu
I do feel a good wrestling base is a serious advantage in mma though, with that said....


atheleticly gifted people can scramble right along with some of the better wrestlers...and some people just have a good base..I remember one guy in particular, he was new and so I was gonna go easy on him and work my bottom game...heck once I got on bottom I could not sweep this dude..He had one of the best bases I have ever felt. And he had never wrestled or anything....I dont really know why i mentioned this but this thread just made me think of it...some people are natural wrestlers even if they didnt wrestle i guess. Its wierd.

I cant hang with top notch wrestlers...but everyone I come accross thinks I was a wrestler...Im like what the hell ive never wrestled! A dude told me to compete in intermediate when I was a novice "because of my wrestling base"...I was like "what wrestling base?"....but decent wrestlers can tell Im not on their level, although non wrestlers and wrestlers that arent as skilled all think I was some kinda high school wrestler or something and I never did.. Its kind of flattering and kind of annoying. Lol