Muay Thai losing relevance in MMA...?

[RichardN7]

Hi all,

So recently something has been bugging me. Muay Thai is supposed to be the king of striking arts in that MT training is no-nonsense (unlike karate with its forms) and covers the widest range of techniques possible.
However, muay thai in MMA has seen a sudden decline these last years.
Some of the most renowned MT practitioners in MMA are Jose Aldo, Renan Barao, RDA, and many other fighters like Fabricio Werdum, Thomas Almeida, etc. use it.
Let's take a look at each of their defeats.
-Renan Barao was a feared stand-up fighter, before being utterly dominated TWICE by an unorthodox wrestle-boxer in TJ Dillashaw. His movement and superior boxing technique was something Barao had no answer for.
-Jose Aldo was the only UFC FW champ before being brutally dethroned by a very technical boxer in McGregor. Some could argue he was emotionally involved, but a simple 13 sec KO like the one laid on him speaks for major technical shortcomings in his punching game which were never exposed before.
-RDA recently made a transition from great grappler to great striker, training at Evolve MMA under world champ Thai trainers. He KOd many top-level opponents like Bendo and Cerrone and embarassed Pettis and Diaz. Eddie Alvarez, another wrestle-boxer, swiftly KOd him with a left-right hook combo.
-Fabricio Werdum was lazily blitzing towards Stipe Miocic, yet another wrestle-boxer, who pulled and countered with a right hand for the KO (not unlike McGregor).
-Thomas Almeida was na undefeated prospect with an imposing (if not padded) undefeated record, before suffering a devastating KO at the hands of (you guessed it) wrestle-boxer Cody Garbrandt.


Seeing a trend here?
Muay Thai-heavy fighters getting knocked back and forth by boxers.
I suppose punches are much more effective in MMA (small gloves) and a good boxer is nigh unstoppable. Small gloves negate the cover-up defense we see in kickboxing so often, kicks are countered by accurate punches, etc etc etc.

Any comments?

Anyone to dispute this theory?(trying to get other ppls POV)

Cheers

 

[Tayski]

So you're basically saying with those examples that the better boxer won with better boxing?
I wonder if the better grappler could win by outgrappling his opponent.

 

[RichardN7]

So you're basically saying with those examples that the better boxer won with better boxing?
I wonder if the better grappler could win by outgrappling his opponent.

I'm not sure I understand xD
What I'm saying is, for some reason, neither of these respected kickboxers could neutralize their boxer opponents' punching. We saw no clinch, no low kicks, no push kicks... Why was that?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

To be honest, muay thai has never been as prominent in MMA as the fanboys would have you believe. I say that as someone who's trained for going on four years in Muay Thai. It's generally that they're trained muay thai style striking in the technique for the round kicks and throwing knees, but it's not very often you see a fighter who is actually savvy with the intricacies of Muay Thai like Joanna, Matt Brown or Rambaa Somdet are.

Even Anderson Silva known for his clinch game, didn't demonstrate half the clinch knowledge that Matt Brown does, and it's very rare you see strong elbow fighters, although Thomas Almeida is a nice exception. In truth I think the days of styles in MMA are over, at least in terms of martial art vs martial art, if you go back only five years ago you could still find examples of muay thai vs karate, with fighters who are very good at one particular discipline.

Now it's more submission vs gnp vs boxer vs kicker, where you can still identify their fighting style, but it's less tied to their striking base. It seems more now that people train MMA specifically, and then BJJ and striking to tune their game up more.

That being said, Rambaa Somdet despite being a world class muay thai fighter, was really known for his guard game.

 

[Tayski]

I'm not sure I understand xD
What I'm saying is, for some reason, neither of these respected kickboxers could neutralize their boxer opponents' punching. We saw no clinch, no low kicks, no push kicks... Why was that?

Ok let's clear a few points here:

• They're not respected Kickboxers. You could say respected strikers maybe, but they're not respected Kickboxers. They're MMA fighters.
• Superior boxing means you'll have an advantage in the punching exchanges as you'll be able to punch and dodge punches better.
• Getting punch KO'd by someone doesn't mean your kicks and knees suck.
• Recently there has been a lot of cases of fighters using great boxing techniques that won them the fight.
• Muay Thai is not losing relevance in MMA.

 

[II Muchetto II]

The guys you mentioned were never really pure Muay Thai fighters, it was more MMA stand up displaying some Thai techniques.

If you put someone in in the cage in a Thai square-ish stance with most their weight on the back foot then they will be easily taken down.

The stand up of MMA is constantly evolving, years ago Muay Thai stand up was popular because people who were predominantly boxers or grapplers etc wasnt conditioned to be getting attacked with shins, elbows and knees. Now everyone is better conditioned to deal with the attacks and good boxing is having a lot of success, as is unorthodox style Kickboxers probably due to the wide stance being a big help with take down defence, plus being a style new to MMA it's not yet been worked out yet, so if you can't get them down you are seeing people have a hard time trying to deal with them.
But that'll be the next thing to be worked out then you will be the likes of page and wonderboy getting caught out and possibly having to make adjustments in their approach to stand up.

But MMA stand up will always keep evolving and better ways to approach combat will keep coming through.

But MMA is a sport, Muay Thai is a sport. In general MMA fighters wouldn't do to well at Muay Thai and visa versa. No one martial art is the answer to MMA, is might seem that way at times, but that soon changes (although Maia is making it look like UFC 1 again!)

 

[flikerstance]

yes myai thai in todays top mma isnt very good with the level of wrestling and boxing used thai guys stand flat footed and tall not good for guys trying to take you down it seems people use the term "muay thai" for anything striking though theres a big difference traditional thai is not good for mma

 

[roventu]

doubt it. im seeing a lot more application of elbows in clinch, and even a lot of knees to dissuade takedowns. jose aldo and cerrone in their last fight threw a lot of defensive knees as their opponent swarmed in, which i think is a great technique that will get more popular.

the thing is, even though fighters are wellrounded, you still see people that specialize and excel in their background, and make everyone else look amateur in that style. damian maia with bjj, phil davis (IMO) with wrestling, joanna with muay thai. every popular martial art is still relevant bc it will have its representatives. sadly, judo's rep has mysteriously disappeared haha. and you still have karate (wonderboy) and tkd (yair rodriguez). if anything, there seems to be less focus on clean boxing technique. who would you say is boxing's representative?

 

[aerius]

The guys you mentioned were never really pure Muay Thai fighters, it was more MMA stand up displaying some Thai techniques.

Bingo. Just because a fighter uses knees, double collar ties, and low round kicks doesn't mean he's a Muay Thai fighter. It's kinda like saying a fighter who uses clinch take downs is a Greco-Roman wrestler. It might be Greco-Roman, but it could also be Judo or Sambo, the techniques they're using is only one part of the picture, you also need to look at how those techniques are being integrated and used in the fighter's overall system and style.

Going back to striking, let's use the example of Holly Holm and Valentina Shevchenko. Both strikers, both throw jabs, left straights, low round kicks, check hooks, and head kicks. So you'd say they're both kickboxers, or they're both Muay Thai fighters, right? In a word, no. Holly is a boxer turned kickboxer whereas Valentina is as pure Muay Thai as it gets in the UFC, though she also has some TKD techniques. When you watch their fight against each other, their stances are very different, the footwork and movement is different, the setups and timing are different, they don't use the same strikes to do the same things and there's a very clear contrast in the way they go about their striking.

By the way, Holly vs. Valentina is an example of a Muay Thai fighter beating a boxer/kickboxer.

 

[NidNoi]

Hi all,

So recently something has been bugging me. Muay Thai is supposed to be the king of striking arts in that MT training is no-nonsense (unlike karate with its forms) and covers the widest range of techniques possible.
However, muay thai in MMA has seen a sudden decline these last years.
Some of the most renowned MT practitioners in MMA are Jose Aldo, Renan Barao, RDA, and many other fighters like Fabricio Werdum, Thomas Almeida, etc. use it.
Let's take a look at each of their defeats.
-Renan Barao was a feared stand-up fighter, before being utterly dominated TWICE by an unorthodox wrestle-boxer in TJ Dillashaw. His movement and superior boxing technique was something Barao had no answer for.
-Jose Aldo was the only UFC FW champ before being brutally dethroned by a very technical boxer in McGregor. Some could argue he was emotionally involved, but a simple 13 sec KO like the one laid on him speaks for major technical shortcomings in his punching game which were never exposed before.
-RDA recently made a transition from great grappler to great striker, training at Evolve MMA under world champ Thai trainers. He KOd many top-level opponents like Bendo and Cerrone and embarassed Pettis and Diaz. Eddie Alvarez, another wrestle-boxer, swiftly KOd him with a left-right hook combo.
-Fabricio Werdum was lazily blitzing towards Stipe Miocic, yet another wrestle-boxer, who pulled and countered with a right hand for the KO (not unlike McGregor).
-Thomas Almeida was na undefeated prospect with an imposing (if not padded) undefeated record, before suffering a devastating KO at the hands of (you guessed it) wrestle-boxer Cody Garbrandt.


Seeing a trend here?
Muay Thai-heavy fighters getting knocked back and forth by boxers.
I suppose punches are much more effective in MMA (small gloves) and a good boxer is nigh unstoppable. Small gloves negate the cover-up defense we see in kickboxing so often, kicks are countered by accurate punches, etc etc etc.

Any comments?

Anyone to dispute this theory?(trying to get other ppls POV)

Cheers

A fraud , Don't bother muay thai .

You stopped calling them "muay thai" for a long time and Thais have already accepted it. LOL

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Can any mma fighter say they are muay thai when they neglect the teep so much. Its basically the jab of the art and you never see people throw it the way thai fighters do.

 

[RichardN7]

doubt it. im seeing a lot more application of elbows in clinch, and even a lot of knees to dissuade takedowns. jose aldo and cerrone in their last fight threw a lot of defensive knees as their opponent swarmed in, which i think is a great technique that will get more popular.

the thing is, even though fighters are wellrounded, you still see people that specialize and excel in their background, and make everyone else look amateur in that style. damian maia with bjj, phil davis (IMO) with wrestling, joanna with muay thai. every popular martial art is still relevant bc it will have its representatives. sadly, judo's rep has mysteriously disappeared haha. and you still have karate (wonderboy) and tkd (yair rodriguez). if anything, there seems to be less focus on clean boxing technique. who would you say is boxing's representative?

Conor McGregor, Dillashaw, Cruz....

 

[RichardN7]

Ok let's clear a few points here:

• They're not respected Kickboxers. You could say respected strikers maybe, but they're not respected Kickboxers. They're MMA fighters.
• Superior boxing means you'll have an advantage in the punching exchanges as you'll be able to punch and dodge punches better.
• Getting punch KO'd by someone doesn't mean your kicks and knees suck.
• Recently there has been a lot of cases of fighters using great boxing techniques that won them the fight.
• Muay Thai is not losing relevance in MMA.

I feel you're missing my point.
What I'm trying to say is I keep seeing skilled punchers in MMA dominating skilled kickers, countering their kicks with punches, pressuring them, forcing them into punching range and picking them apart.
This seems like a steady trend. What do you make of that?

 

[a guy]

Anyone who's paid close attention to the sport for more than a few years should have noticed by now that wrestling and boxing tend to be the foundations for success and longevity in the sport. Guys who are known for poor boxing or wrestling tend to go downhill very fast if they don't get good at those things. At the amateur level, a quick blast double and hard overhand right win more fights than probably anything else. At the top level, guys usually have more to their game but almost no elite fighters stay at the top without above average boxing and wrestling. Plenty of championships have been won by guys who almost exclusively used their boxing and wrestling skills--Woodley, Miocic, Weidman, Hendricks, Bisping, Cormier, Alvarez, Cruz, Edgar, Evans, Couture, Lesnar, Velasquez, Rampage...and if you include guys who excelled at other things but used boxing and/or wrestling for the core of their game then there's also Aldo, McGregor, Dillashaw, GSP, Jones, Mighty Mouse and probably others I'm forgetting.

"Muay Thai" will still never lose its relevance. In fact, the better the average fighter gets at boxing and wrestling the more opportunities there will be to apply "Muay Thai" techniques. Look at Aldo. He's able to land devastating low kicks and counter knees because he has such incredible TDD that you're not likely to control him even if you get his leg, and he controls distance so well with his jab that it's hard to get a decent shot on him in the first place. A lot of wrestle boxers would struggle seriously with guys who could keep them at kicking distance then tie them up in the clinch--assuming the opponent wouldn't just get taken down or dropped in the pocket. Get good enough at fundamental boxing and wrestling then you can do pretty much anything you want.

 

[j123]

doubt it. im seeing a lot more application of elbows in clinch, and even a lot of knees to dissuade takedowns. jose aldo and cerrone in their last fight threw a lot of defensive knees as their opponent swarmed in, which i think is a great technique that will get more popular.

the thing is, even though fighters are wellrounded, you still see people that specialize and excel in their background, and make everyone else look amateur in that style. damian maia with bjj, phil davis (IMO) with wrestling, joanna with muay thai. every popular martial art is still relevant bc it will have its representatives. sadly, judo's rep has mysteriously disappeared haha. and you still have karate (wonderboy) and tkd (yair rodriguez). if anything, there seems to be less focus on clean boxing technique. who would you say is boxing's representative?

James Toney

When will Yellow Bamboo have a rep in teh UFC?

A lot of wrestle boxers would struggle seriously with guys who could keep them at kicking distance then tie them up in the clinch--assuming the opponent wouldn't just get taken down or dropped in the pocket. Get good enough at fundamental boxing and wrestling then you can do pretty much anything you want.

Sounds like Cerrone v Alvarez - 2 years ago

 

[j123]

Can any mma fighter say they are muay thai when they neglect the teep so much. Its basically the jab of the art and you never see people throw it the way thai fighters do.

To guys who don't know, anything that has low kicks, knees, a double collar tie clinch, is MT to them. It doesn't help that the commentators say it as well "He's got them there with the moay thigh clinch", "nice moo tai knee", etc

 

[RichardN7]

James Toney

When will Yellow Bamboo have a rep in teh UFC?



Sounds like Cerrone v Alvarez - 2 years ago

But why couldn't Pettis do the same to RDA?

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Anyone who's paid close attention to the sport for more than a few years should have noticed by now that wrestling and boxing tend to be the foundations for success and longevity in the sport. Guys who are known for poor boxing or wrestling tend to go downhill very fast if they don't get good at those things. At the amateur level, a quick blast double and hard overhand right win more fights than probably anything else. At the top level, guys usually have more to their game but almost no elite fighters stay at the top without above average boxing and wrestling. Plenty of championships have been won by guys who almost exclusively used their boxing and wrestling skills--Woodley, Miocic, Weidman, Hendricks, Bisping, Cormier, Alvarez, Cruz, Edgar, Evans, Couture, Lesnar, Velasquez, Rampage...and if you include guys who excelled at other things but used boxing and/or wrestling for the core of their game then there's also Aldo, McGregor, Dillashaw, GSP, Jones, Mighty Mouse and probably others I'm forgetting.

"Muay Thai" will still never lose its relevance. In fact, the better the average fighter gets at boxing and wrestling the more opportunities there will be to apply "Muay Thai" techniques. Look at Aldo. He's able to land devastating low kicks and counter knees because he has such incredible TDD that you're not likely to control him even if you get his leg, and he controls distance so well with his jab that it's hard to get a decent shot on him in the first place. A lot of wrestle boxers would struggle seriously with guys who could keep them at kicking distance then tie them up in the clinch--assuming the opponent wouldn't just get taken down or dropped in the pocket. Get good enough at fundamental boxing and wrestling then you can do pretty much anything you want.

how many of the guys that mention are real boxers though? alot of them just seem to be frmo a kickboxing base but use their hands alot.

 

[a guy]

Sounds like Cerrone v Alvarez - 2 years ago

Cerrone is a great example, the Miller fight being another that stands out. He's choked in some big matchups but is absolutely one of the most versatile and dangerous strikers in the sport.

 

[a guy]

how many of the guys that mention are real boxers though? alot of them just seem to be frmo a kickboxing base but use their hands alot.

Not sure where you got that, most are from a wrestling base, and all have spent time focusing on pure boxing. The base doesn't really matter anyway. What matters is what happens in the cage, and what happens in the cage is guys use boxing and wrestling fundamentals and techniques to win fights.

And by the way, that's despite a complete lack of decent boxing talent and coaching in the sport. There's almost no such thing as a "real boxer" in MMA. The closest you'll get is probably Joe Duffy.