Muay Thai fighters who "just stand there"

[PivotPunch]

Haha, damn, was gonna post exactly the Buakaw vs Masato rematch
Well, I can't speak for pure kickboxing as I'm more of an MMA fan, but there's lots of supposedly 'good' Muay Thai fighters at the highest levels in MMA getting beat up by boxers left and right. I've seen a few friends' fights in Thailand as well, and it ended the same way (I realize fights in Thailand are not always up to standard (lots of local taxi drivers, old drunks, etc., looking for quick cash) but still.

None of these MT fighters in MMA are Thais though and most didn't learn MT in Thailand. Thailand has produced a lot of boxing champs. Obviously some Thais really aren't good boxers but on average the level of boxing is pretty good in pro Thais.

The biggest issue in kickboxing for Thais seems to be the short fights and the high pace with the for them unusual way of scoring that rewards punches and volume much more than they are used to but even so guys like Sittichai often seem superior to their opponents in almost any category whether it's punches or kicks

 

[RichardN7]

None of these MT fighters in MMA are Thais though and most didn't learn MT in Thailand. Thailand has produced a lot of boxing champs. Obviously some Thais really aren't good boxers but on average the level of boxing is pretty good in pro Thais.

The biggest issue in kickboxing for Thais seems to be the short fights and the high pace with the for them unusual way of scoring that rewards punches and volume much more than they are used to but even so guys like Sittichai often seem superior to their opponents in almost any category whether it's punches or kicks

That's true, they have lots of boxing champs, some of whom cross-over between boxing and MT. However, precisely due to the way punches are scored in Thailand, MT fighters don't work on them as much in some cases. This leads to a tendency of underwhelming hand power and precision, which is a little too common for me :/

 

[PivotPunch]

That's true, they have lots of boxing champs, some of whom cross-over between boxing and MT. However, precisely due to the way punches are scored in Thailand, MT fighters don't work on them as much in some cases. This leads to a tendency of underwhelming hand power and precision, which is a little too common for me :/

I think the Thais who are not that good at boxing which again you are right do exist have not that great defence and yes sometimes lack power. But the ones who are good are usually really good punchers. Since punches score less and are thrown not in volume every punch is usually thrown with power or at least most of the time even the jab.
And as a result many of the Thais who did cross over to boxing were big punches. Muangsurin went into Homer Simpson mode to become champ with fewest pro fights in boxing with chin, power and one accurate punch, Kaosai Glaxay had real power, Samart at least had decent power even if he wasn't Tyson and so on and in MT guys like Anuwat were all big punchers

 

[AbeRudder]

the best boxers that have come from kickfighting are mostly thai......samart, veeraphol, newlukrak, somrak etc.

but what richardn7 is talking about is common on the amateur and international circuit. you see it in the ufc sometimes like shane campbell vs john makdessi. muay thai stylists with very suspect defence and weak punches. guys that dont have the experience of the thais.

 

[SuperLuigi]

the best boxers that have come from kickfighting are mostly thai......samart, veeraphol, newlukrak, somrak etc.

but what richardn7 is talking about is common on the amateur and international circuit. you see it in the ufc sometimes like shane campbell vs john makdessi. muay thai stylists with very suspect defence and weak punches. guys that dont have the experience of the thais.

The greatest strength of nak muays imo is that to reach the highest level they have to pass through so many finer and finer filters that by the end you have people who are simply champions. Not just MT champions, but people who are intrinsically champions. The formula of success is written in their dna. If they had the same drive and passion for business they would be millionaires. Its why I think Thais could dominate MMA low weight classes if they were thrown into a Greg Jackson-like camp at age 20~.

 

[PivotPunch]

The greatest strength of nak muays imo is that to reach the highest level they have to pass through so many finer and finer filters that by the end you have people who are simply champions. Not just MT champions, but people who are intrinsically champions. The formula of success is written in their dna. If they had the same drive and passion for business they would be millionaires. Its why I think Thais could dominate MMA low weight classes if they were thrown into a Greg Jackson-like camp at age 20~.

I wish there were some young Thais who did go into MMA at a really good camp. But it's unlikely to happen MMA matches are banned in Thailand and they don't have the money to go into MMA on their own, MT is how they survive

 

[SuperLuigi]

I wish there were some young Thais who did go into MMA at a really good camp. But it's unlikely to happen MMA matches are banned in Thailand and they don't have the money to go into MMA on their own, MT is how they survive

You never know, the world is changing fast. Imagine telling prime Sakmongkol that in 20 years there would be something called Thai Fight where you can make tons of money from beating up cans instead of fighting beasts in the stadium scene.

 

[PivotPunch]

You never know, the world is changing fast. Imagine telling prime Sakmongkol that in 20 years there would be something called Thai Fight where you can make tons of money from beating up cans instead of fighting beasts in the stadium scene.

Money wise it would be great even being some average UFC guy or Bellator fighter they would make much more money than in Thailand and I can't imagine that Lion fight pays that well either

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

I think the Thais who are not that good at boxing which again you are right do exist have not that great defence and yes sometimes lack power. But the ones who are good are usually really good punchers. Since punches score less and are thrown not in volume every punch is usually thrown with power or at least most of the time even the jab.
And as a result many of the Thais who did cross over to boxing were big punches. Muangsurin went into Homer Simpson mode to become champ with fewest pro fights in boxing with chin, power and one accurate punch, Kaosai Glaxay had real power, Samart at least had decent power even if he wasn't Tyson and so on and in MT guys like Anuwat were all big punchers

Yeah, but alot of muay thai's most successful boxing crossovers have been amateur fighters. Those guy weren't resting on their punching power to win fights, they were outpointing the opposition. Moreover, you make it sound like the majority of the guys who crossover to boxing had a punch heavy style or were powerful punchers when they did muay thai but that isn't necessarily true either. I mean, there have been alot of great muay mats who have crossed over to boxing but it seems to me like there have been just as many fimeus who have crossed over, maybe more.

 

[Karaev fan]

Haha, damn, was gonna post exactly the Buakaw vs Masato rematch
Well, I can't speak for pure kickboxing as I'm more of an MMA fan, but there's lots of supposedly 'good' Muay Thai fighters at the highest levels in MMA getting beat up by boxers left and right. I've seen a few friends' fights in Thailand as well, and it ended the same way (I realize fights in Thailand are not always up to standard (lots of local taxi drivers, old drunks, etc., looking for quick cash) but still.

I facetiously blame Joe Rogan for this.

On occasions, he has crossover kickfighters types on his podcast (JWP, Kevin Ross, Joe Schilling). With them he needs to talk about MT/KB. Problem is though, that he's obviously not a regular fan of the sports and his primary knowledge is from listening to Michael Schiavello on Lion Fight broadcasts.

In the midst of desperately dropping names to appear 'with it', he somehow stumbled onto the name Ramon Dekkers and somehow started believing that Dekkers was one of the greatest MT fighters of all time (as opposed to being a high level journeyman-decent contender who was prominent mostly for being farang). To explain that, he latched onto a narrative where Dekkers 'solves' the muay thai riddle with good-old fashioned fistcuffs (sorta a Victorian parable if you think about it). That then gets extrapolated into 'nak muays can just be outboxed'.

I'm being super tongue in cheek of course. But boxing is only a weakness in the skillset of thais only relatively due to scoring criteria. Given that the base skill of elite MT is so high due to greater individual experience (i.e. starting super early and fighting often) and the large talent pool, that's rarely an exploitable hole.

There are plenty of counterexamples of Thais outboxing more boxing oriented fighters. This is even before you start thinking about how many of those Thais were collecting paychecks out of their prime or how they were competing in a clinchphobic ruleset.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

I facetiously blame Joe Rogan for this.

On occasions, he has crossover kickfighters types on his podcast (JWP, Kevin Ross, Joe Schilling). With them he needs to talk about MT/KB. Problem is though, that he's obviously not a regular fan of the sports and his primary knowledge is from listening to Michael Schiavello on Lion Fight broadcasts.

In the midst of desperately dropping names to appear 'with it', he somehow stumbled onto the name Ramon Dekkers and somehow started believing that Dekkers was one of the greatest MT fighters of all time (as opposed to being a high level journeyman-decent contender who was prominent mostly for being farang). To explain that, he latched onto a narrative where Dekkers 'solves' the muay thai riddle with good-old fashioned fistcuffs (sorta a Victorian parable if you think about it). That then gets extrapolated into 'nak muays can just be outboxed'.

I'm being super tongue in cheek of course. But boxing is only a weakness in the skillset of thais only relatively due to scoring criteria. Given that the base skill of elite MT is so high due to greater individual experience (i.e. starting super early and fighting often) and the large talent pool, that's rarely an exploitable hole.

There are plenty of counterexamples of Thais outboxing more boxing oriented fighters. This is even before you start thinking about how many of those Thais were collecting paychecks out of their prime or how they were competing in a clinchphobic ruleset.

I think a lot of the way that the combat sports community thinks about muay thai has to do with racism or belief in the cultural superiority of the west. 'The thais are too stupid and backwards to have learned about boxing and integrated it with muay thai so a white guy had to show them how'. 'The thais may have come up with muay thai but the west has perfected it by combining it with boxing'. Typical bullshit.

And it's not just Joe Rogan who believes this, you hear this sort of thing all the time.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I think a lot of the way that the combat sports community thinks about muay thai has to do with racism or belief in the cultural superiority of the west. 'The thais are too stupid and backwards to have learned about boxing and integrated it with muay thai so a white guy had to show them how'. 'The thais may have come up with muay thai but the west has perfected it by combining it with boxing'. Typical bullshit.

And it's not just Joe Rogan who believes this, you here this sort of thing all the time.

Can we really apply that to the entire combat sports community? I always assumed that was nationalistic young Dutch kickboxing fans trying to justify their brand of kickfighting. I bet most of the McGregor super movement crowd has never even heard of Dekkers or any particular nak muay besides maybe Buakaw.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Can we really apply that to the entire combat sports community? I always assumed that was nationalistic young Dutch kickboxing fans trying to justify their brand of kickfighting. I bet most of the McGregor super movement crowd has never even heard of Dekkers or any particular nak muay besides maybe Buakaw.

Well they might not know who Dekkers is but they probably still buy into the idea that because thai don't know anything about boxing, they'll be too flat footed and easy pickings for neo movement gods. McGregor told them so.

Even combat sports noobs have heard about the distinction between 'traditional muay thai' and 'modern muay thai/dutch muay thai/brazilian muay thai/upgraded muay thai'. The traditional guys just stand and trade the other guy appreciate the value of movement/defense/boxing.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Well they might not know who Dekkers is but they probably still buy into the idea that because thai don't know anything about boxing, they'll be too flat footed and easy pickings for neo movement gods. McGregor told them so.

Oh the McGregor fanboys for sure. I just think that if you take them, the Dutch guys, and the Joe Rogan apostles, that isnt a good representation of the combat sports community as a whole. On the contrary I think a lot of fans who have formed opinions on the matter have arrived at the opposite conclusion. We had a whole era of Wanderlei, Anderson and Shogun destroying guys with MT, and the consensus always seemed to be that if you try to neglect MT you end up like Rich Franklin.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Oh the McGregor fanboys for sure. I just think that if you take them, the Dutch guys, and the Joe Rogan apostles, that isnt a good representation of the combat sports community as a whole. On the contrary I think a lot of fans who have formed opinions on the matter have arrived at the opposite conclusion. We had a whole era of Wanderlei, Anderson and Shogun destroying guys with MT, and the consensus always seemed to be that if you try to neglect MT you end up like Rich Franklin.

Maybe, but even just those three elements have the ear of a sizeable chunk of the combat sports populace.

They could also just say 'well that's Brazilian muay thai a big improvement on traditional muay thai. No traditional guy could ever do what those guys did'.

 

[NidNoi]

dutch muay thai

Dutch kickboxing

 

[Snubnoze707]

I wish there were some young Thais who did go into MMA at a really good camp. But it's unlikely to happen MMA matches are banned in Thailand and they don't have the money to go into MMA on their own, MT is how they survive

MMA is NOT banned in Thailand.

Why do people keep saying this?

 

[Kanka]

MMA is NOT banned in Thailand.

Why do people keep saying this?

probably because there were articles floating around saying mma got banned in thailand

 

[Snubnoze707]

probably because there were articles floating around saying mma got banned in thailand

Which was false information, but I would hope regulars on here would have been clued in by this point. Heck, ONE FC just held an event in Bangkok a few months back.

 

[RichardN7]

I facetiously blame Joe Rogan for this.

On occasions, he has crossover kickfighters types on his podcast (JWP, Kevin Ross, Joe Schilling). With them he needs to talk about MT/KB. Problem is though, that he's obviously not a regular fan of the sports and his primary knowledge is from listening to Michael Schiavello on Lion Fight broadcasts.

In the midst of desperately dropping names to appear 'with it', he somehow stumbled onto the name Ramon Dekkers and somehow started believing that Dekkers was one of the greatest MT fighters of all time (as opposed to being a high level journeyman-decent contender who was prominent mostly for being farang). To explain that, he latched onto a narrative where Dekkers 'solves' the muay thai riddle with good-old fashioned fistcuffs (sorta a Victorian parable if you think about it). That then gets extrapolated into 'nak muays can just be outboxed'.

I'm being super tongue in cheek of course. But boxing is only a weakness in the skillset of thais only relatively due to scoring criteria. Given that the base skill of elite MT is so high due to greater individual experience (i.e. starting super early and fighting often) and the large talent pool, that's rarely an exploitable hole.

There are plenty of counterexamples of Thais outboxing more boxing oriented fighters. This is even before you start thinking about how many of those Thais were collecting paychecks out of their prime or how they were competing in a clinchphobic ruleset.

I was also under the impression that Dekkers was among the best MT fighters