Muay Thai bagwork

[ironkhan57]

This is not something most people notice but a lot of boxers KEEP their butts stuck out behind them- it's always ready to do any kind of punch with maximum force. You're not supposed to bend the back for force, just the hips and legs.

The spine takes more of a "J" shape instead of today's standard "S" shape. I was reading a scientific article about it and the J shape (standing straight spine with the butt stuck out behind) is supposed to be a lot more natural, healthier posture and how everyone used to keep their spines in ancient times, before we spent the days sitting at desks. Primitive tribes in modern times still keep their spines like this-- which is what caused it to be studied in the first place.

It (J shape spine) certainly helps transmit force a lot better when boxing, whether body punch or not. The straightness of it delivers better rotation from the hips when they fold and the spine turns. It also keeps better balance for the body overall, pretty sure

It's probably better for wrestling, too, but that's not so much my area

I just noticed this response, I don't know why I didn't get a notification. Thank you for PM'ing me this because I did not see it.

 

[Sano]

This is not something most people notice but a lot of boxers KEEP their butts stuck out behind them- it's always ready to do any kind of punch with maximum force. You're not supposed to bend the back for force, just the hips and legs.

The spine takes more of a "J" shape instead of today's standard "S" shape. I was reading a scientific article about it and the J shape (standing straight spine with the butt stuck out behind) is supposed to be a lot more natural, healthier posture and how everyone used to keep their spines in ancient times, before we spent the days sitting at desks. Primitive tribes in modern times still keep their spines like this-- which is what caused it to be studied in the first place.

It (J shape spine) certainly helps transmit force a lot better when boxing, whether body punch or not. The straightness of it delivers better rotation from the hips when they fold and the spine turns. It also keeps better balance for the body overall, pretty sure

It's probably better for wrestling, too, but that's not so much my area

Not to rain on the parade here, but that sounds a bit nonsensical. If I am hearing you right, a straight posture (which is good) but with an excessive lower back arch, is that what you are saying? I think what you're feeling when you focus on "arching" is actually sitting back and bending your legs more and getting some hip flexion before initiating the punch which will definitely help you use your ass and hips more. If it works for you with the mental cues you use now in mind, then good, but the whole "natural posture thing" sounds made up. It's a very common thing with broad statements like that, another example is the "squat like a baby" nonsense that was peddled a few years back. Do you have the article?

 

[the_winding_way]

Thanks for sharing the vids. You've got some great pop on your shots. I liked the 3rd fight the best - you had to work for it more.

 

[Sinister]

Not to rain on the parade here, but that sounds a bit nonsensical. If I am hearing you right, a straight posture (which is good) but with an excessive lower back arch, is that what you are saying? I think what you're feeling when you focus on "arching" is actually sitting back and bending your legs more and getting some hip flexion before initiating the punch which will definitely help you use your ass and hips more. If it works for you with the mental cues you use now in mind, then good, but the whole "natural posture thing" sounds made up. It's a very common thing with broad statements like that, another example is the "squat like a baby" nonsense that was peddled a few years back. Do you have the article?

No, you stick your butt out. The problem is you're describing a flex of the lumbar, excessive curvature of the lower-back, but that's not exactly sticking your butt out. When you bend your knees and engage the hips WITHOUT curling, your butt will just stick out naturally as if you're going to sit. It's a half-squat. And he's also right about how sitting completely ruined athletic posture for humans, both in the upper-body and the back. We don't even squat to poop anymore and most of us use toilets that are too high. This has lead to a bevvy of physiological issues that in the U.S. has spawned high-dollar physiotherapy industry, and the lesser-regarded chiropractic industry. We could eradicate both of those if we'd restore physical education in schools to what it once was, which is how to sit, stand, climb, run, bend, squat, etc. etc., correctly.

Lucas - Dude you're at the level where you should just come to Vegas. Because I don't have a whole lot in the way of criticism. Just stuff I'd add that doesn't translate well in written-word.

 

[Sano]

No, you stick your butt out. The problem is you're describing a flex of the lumbar, excessive curvature of the lower-back, but that's not exactly sticking your butt out. When you bend your knees and engage the hips WITHOUT curling, your butt will just stick out naturally as if you're going to sit. It's a half-squat. And he's also right about how sitting completely ruined athletic posture for humans, both in the upper-body and the back. We don't even squat to poop anymore and most of us use toilets that are too high. This has lead to a bevvy of physiological issues that in the U.S. has spawned high-dollar physiotherapy industry, and the lesser-regarded chiropractic industry. We could eradicate both of those if we'd restore physical education in schools to what it once was, which is how to sit, stand, climb, run, bend, squat, etc. etc., correctly.

Lucas - Dude you're at the level where you should just come to Vegas. Because I don't have a whole lot in the way of criticism. Just stuff I'd add that doesn't translate well in written-word.

No I was talking about excessive lumbar extension in standing position, which was how I understood his J shape (flat thoracic spine, lumbar extension). I get what you're saying with sitting back that you naturally extend your lower back somewhat as in a squat, but it's much more neutral lower back position than an extended one, it's the hips and ass that do most of the work. Maybe we are having a terminology confusion, it's hard to communicate these things in written text. Many people will present with pain if they overly extend their lower back doing any squat movement. With others that is not the case, which leads me to the posture thing.

There's no doubt that prolonged sitting is terrible for your body. With that, I think it's utopian to believe you could eradicate physical therapy by restoring physical education in schools and introducing less sitting. Posture habits and corrections are nothing new, Janda coined upper cross syndrome in the 70's and I have books that goes back to 1949 and further that talks about the exact same thing as straight posture, shoulders back and so on. In reality, while posture is important it's more than just one thing. I've seen a lot of people who might have what we term "dyskinesia" or some "faulty" joints movements and posture, with no pain present what so ever, and on the other hand people with "good" posture who suffer terrible. The reason for this is that there's more going on.

If you look at the litterature, there's no straight forward and clear connection between posture and pain in lumbar disorders (https://bmcmusculoskeletdisord.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12891-016-1250-1), shoulders (https://www.jospt.org/doi/abs/10.2519/jospt.2017.7268?code=jospt-site) and even neck and thoracic posture which show conflicting results (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20430685, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26182924). On the other hand, some evidence show that during sitting, being mobile and changing your position naturally is actually more important, and that pain is associated with a rigid posture (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003687016300515). Biomechanically there's also evidence to suggest that sit to stand posture is highly individual and not something that's easily linked to pain nor standardised (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0021929017303135).

Now I'm not saying that posture corrections doesn't work, because they do 100%. The thing is though, that you have to look at what the person needs. Some people can overcorrect the shoulders back thing and actually flatten the thoracic spine to a degree where upward rotation of the scapula is limited and thus performance suffers and pain presents. Also, rigidity can lead to hypertonic muscles which raises the PH leves in the tissue by lessening the blood supply and creates chronic pain. Fascia and inflammation can attribute to this, especially near the neck area. Same with lower back pain, there's no single solution, although we try. Some people need anti extension, some need anti flexion and so on. Good posture in my eyes in one that is stable, yet flexible, changes throughout the day and doesn't present pain or glaring biomechanical issues.

I see your overaching point. I agree that if there was better physical education in school, if children (and adults) were more physicall active, if they trained postural balance more, sat less, were more outside and so on we could eliminate a lot of problems. The majority I'd even say. Same with proper strength training and accepting that pain is a part of life. The psychological side matters a lot too.

Even with that, there will always be a place for physiotherapy. Age, wear and tear, managing volume, pre/post-op training, psychosocial factors, exercise selection, optimising S&C performance, injury prehab and so on. People in the 12,13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 1800s and 1900s and so on had pain too, even with whatever posture they had or didn't have and if they were sitting all day or not.

 

[William Huggins]

No, you stick your butt out. The problem is you're describing a flex of the lumbar, excessive curvature of the lower-back, but that's not exactly sticking your butt out. When you bend your knees and engage the hips WITHOUT curling, your butt will just stick out naturally as if you're going to sit. It's a half-squat. And he's also right about how sitting completely ruined athletic posture for humans, both in the upper-body and the back. We don't even squat to poop anymore and most of us use toilets that are too high. This has lead to a bevvy of physiological issues that in the U.S. has spawned high-dollar physiotherapy industry, and the lesser-regarded chiropractic industry. We could eradicate both of those if we'd restore physical education in schools to what it once was, which is how to sit, stand, climb, run, bend, squat, etc. etc., correctly.

Lucas - Dude you're at the level where you should just come to Vegas. Because I don't have a whole lot in the way of criticism. Just stuff I'd add that doesn't translate well in written-word.

When you squat you should be able to get your arse practically on the floor, sadly it's not what I see in many gyms.........

 

[Sano]

View attachment 408729

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When you squat you should be able to get your arse practically on the floor, sadly it's not what I see in many gyms.........

Unweighted perhaps, but with heavy loads? Not necessarily true. You can definitely improve your hip mobility, but Northern Europeans and some North Americans tend to have deeper hip sockets with a shorter femur neck which means that very deep hip flexion can be limited by anatomical structures. Eastern Europeans and Asians tend to have shallower hip sockets which means greater hip flexion without structural interference. That's very general of course, individuals differ. If you have something called retroverted femur and acetabulums (hip socket) then it can be a problem.

Notice the hip socket on the upper right. There's less space in front. This means that when you go into hip flexion, there's less ROM and you will hit bone on bone earlier, which pulls your pelvis in under you, also called buttwink. Now, under normal circumstances, like with your BW, it's not a problem, but with heavy loads, it very well can be. On the plus side you'll tend to have greater hip extension which might put to at an advantage as a sprinter or something simular.

That's why so many people started to get impingement and pain in front of their hips and in their lower back with the whole Crossift and ATG craze. Because they were jamming themselves down the hole with heavy loads repeatedly while their body was not ready for it at all, or simply not build for it. I was one of those people, but I soon got wiser.

 

[William Huggins]

Unweighted perhaps, but with heavy loads? Not necessarily true. You can definitely improve your hip mobility, but Northern Europeans and some North Americans tend to have deeper hip sockets with a shorter femur neck which means that very deep hip flexion can be limited by anatomical structures. Eastern Europeans and Asians tend to have shallower hip sockets which means greater hip flexion without structural interference. That's very general of course, individuals differ. If you have something called retroverted femur and acetabulums (hip socket) then it can be a problem.

Notice the hip socket on the upper right. There's less space in front. This means that when you go into hip flexion, there's less ROM and you will hit bone on bone earlier, which pulls your pelvis in under you, also called buttwink. Now, under normal circumstances, like with your BW, it's not a problem, but with heavy loads, it very well can be. On the plus side you'll tend to have greater hip extension which might put to at an advantage as a sprinter or something simular.

That's why so many people started to get impingement and pain in front of their hips and in their lower back with the whole Crossift and ATG craze. Because they were jamming themselves down the hole with heavy loads repeatedly while their body was not ready for it at all, or simply not build for it. I was one of those people, but I soon got wiser.

I am talking about their range of movement, body weight, not loaded but you should be able to with at least some load as well. The range of ethnic backgrounds within gyms I train at are very diverse. It might just come down to laziness and poor form, that's not corrected. I am from European stock

 

[Sano]

I am talking about their range of movement, body weight, not loaded but you should be able to with at least some load as well. The range of ethnic backgrounds within gyms I train at are very diverse. It might just come down to laziness and poor form, that's not corrected. I am from European stock

Oh, I thought you meant loaded as you mentioned gym and squats.

The importance of ethnicity is in very broad strokes. It's tendencies, not applicable for everyone and individuals differ. Sure sometimes it's lazyness, but other times there are other variables to consider. It's the same with working overhead. Some people simply do not have the proper scapular and shoulder motion to get in a good position, and if I, at that point, keep yanking them out in excessive external rotation and horizontal abduction to do snatches or whatever I'll mess up their shoulders. We want to encourage gradual progress with clean form that is suitable for the individual, with other mobility modalities on top. Now that's not always possible in a group setting, but then it's a matter of using good cues to correct form and things like "go as far down as you can while feeling stable" for instance, instead of just jamming people down trying to make their asses touch the ground. I can't tell you how many people have fucked up their hips doing that, if they were not suited or prepared for it. Obviously from young adulthood and up these things are more pronounced and kids can get a way with a lot of stuff. Athletically speaking an ATG squat is not THAT important either, and while it's fine, additional mobility modalities can help improve hip ROM in various ways, including external and internal rotation. Btw, just to make things clear, I'm not talking about doing quarter squats. Almost everyone, no matter anatomical hip structure, can learn to do a parallel squat with weight on their back. Also, as we talked about, unweighted you have a lot more leeway.

I wont keep derailing the thread but these are structural matters.

 

[ironkhan57]

I just want to say, not to hijack this thread. When I moved to pakistan with my family when I was 9 years old, the toilets were just a hole in the ground, that was their version of a toilet it still could flush but it was a hole and I did not know how to use it.

 

[Lucas Coradini]

This was the latest fight of my next opponent (blue corner)


How do you all think the fight is going to go?

 

[eternaldarkness]

Switch kick is a bit unbalanced, specially the first few times. Maybe you just needed to find your flow.

Lazy defense after roundhouse, hands dropping. Maybe you just reset for the bag work, but i would prefer to see you keep your defense up for a sec after the kick. Then take your distance, then drop the defense to reset.
Would like to see some double kicks.
Would like to see another strike after the roundhouses as a combo.

Left knee inside the clinch needs work compared to the right one.

Would like to see some power teeps, but you said you threw them before the bag work so it's understandable they are missing.

At 0:23, you do a combo with rear body hook, front body hook, then jab/long guard. During your hooks you are wide open to the head. Personally I don't like body hooks for MT. Even worst for me is to start with the rear hand, and even worst to continue with another body hook... I believe you are wide open during that time for elbows. I know a lot of people have different views on the matter, but just my opinion.

Yellow card from me for the 1:22...

Really nice technique and power in general, and as Sano said, it's really hard to judge from a bagwork after a full workout.

the switch kick looked to be thrown at too close a range. i find it impossible to throw a hard switch kick in punching range. kick from further back and lean back slightly on that lead switch kick.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Oh, I thought you meant loaded as you mentioned gym and squats.

The importance of ethnicity is in very broad strokes. It's tendencies, not applicable for everyone and individuals differ. Sure sometimes it's lazyness, but other times there are other variables to consider. It's the same with working overhead. Some people simply do not have the proper scapular and shoulder motion to get in a good position, and if I, at that point, keep yanking them out in excessive external rotation and horizontal abduction to do snatches or whatever I'll mess up their shoulders. We want to encourage gradual progress with clean form that is suitable for the individual, with other mobility modalities on top. Now that's not always possible in a group setting, but then it's a matter of using good cues to correct form and things like "go as far down as you can while feeling stable" for instance, instead of just jamming people down trying to make their asses touch the ground. I can't tell you how many people have fucked up their hips doing that, if they were not suited or prepared for it. Obviously from young adulthood and up these things are more pronounced and kids can get a way with a lot of stuff. Athletically speaking an ATG squat is not THAT important either, and while it's fine, additional mobility modalities can help improve hip ROM in various ways, including external and internal rotation. Btw, just to make things clear, I'm not talking about doing quarter squats. Almost everyone, no matter anatomical hip structure, can learn to do a parallel squat with weight on their back. Also, as we talked about, unweighted you have a lot more leeway.

I wont keep derailing the thread but these are structural matters.

,
damn, you have a rather impressive knowledge of anatomy. it's not surprising your style looks a little bit over thought at times. i heard a great yarn years ago about the good gun fighter always beating the bad guy that draws first, because the good guy relies on reflex and the bad guy relies on conscious thought, and is slower than the guy using reflex alone. you really seem to have a great understanding of the sport in general but you seem to over think your technique when you box. i would like to see a bagwork or shadowboxing round when you aren't practicing any particular techniques, just hitting and moving.

 

[eternaldarkness]

maybe the jammed switch kick is a flexibility thing. you seem to be a good puncher, rarely do punchers also have flexible hips like good kickers.

 

[Lucas Coradini]

Where are the great minds of the standup forum to analyze this man?

 

[ironkhan57]

This was the latest fight of my next opponent (blue corner)


How do you all think the fight is going to go?

From what I saw in the first round, he's not very alternative to the head shots being thrown, and is very easy to clinch due to him letting his opponent's be elbow range.

I'll let you know some more when I see the whole fight. But from what I saw he thinks he's a tank, and gets that "move to hands away and strike" hit on him a lot.

 

[ironkhan57]

The 2nd round he seems to leave himself open for head strikes just as in the first round, he also seems to get elbowed and kicked in the head too much and at some moments when he moves forward, he drops his hands slightly which will work well for you.

 

[ironkhan57]

In conclusion because I don't want to be putting comments on each round. Here are the things that might give you the advantage.
He's easy to clinch (sometimes he gets double unders or in a tie up and it's harder to get them knees in)
He's vulnerable to the push kick, use that to slow him down a lot.
He let's himself get leg kicked so you'll definitely have fun with that.
He's easy to move his hands out of the way to strike.
He slightly drops his hands moving forward, so instead of using a head kick try clinching and elbowing him or something like that.
He's not good at keeping distance.

Those are the things that might give you an advantage but whose to say he's not working on those weaknesses now, so expect the unexpected.

 

[Lucas Coradini]

Thanks for your comments, @ironkhan57 . I've fought him before. Beat him with punches and teeps that time.

 

[ironkhan57]

Thanks for your comments, @ironkhan57 . I've fought him before. Beat him with punches and teeps that time.

Well I gave the best analysis I could, you can definitely beat him this time. I did not know you fought him before. I really put extra attention at his style and his bad habits.