mount omoplata -> omoplata sweep, points?

Yes it is. Ask any IBJJF ref. Cross guard is a guard and its just like omoplata- hand between the legs. Guard doesnt have to involve your opponents leg between your legs. Where did you get that??

EDIT: Lol I just figured out how awkward "hand between legs" sounds ;)
 
ShanghaiBJJ said:
No it isn't. It is a submission attempt. Any 'guard' HAS to involve any part of my opponents LEG between my leg(s).
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I don't think I get what you are saying here, can you explain me what you mean by your last sentence? There are guards where you haven't legs between legs (spider, closed, traditional open...).

Though I can understand that omoplata could be seen more as a submission then a guard, at that point (I made the same example about the mounted triangle 2 pages ago)
 
Sawoszao said:
He is not "removing" himself from a dominant position, he is going for a submission. If opponent manages to stop that submission attempt you can think of that as an escape on behalf of the opponent, just as if the opponent would bridge out or escape an armbar attempt.
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Just because he's attempting a submission doesn't mean that he isn't voluntarily leaving a dominant position. Points are not awarded for regaining a position you left on purpose.

I think that it is probably going to vary some depending on the ref in question and exact chain of events, but I would think that this is the rule of thumb.
 
theglendon said:
Just because he's attempting a submission doesn't mean that he isn't voluntarily leaving a dominant position. Points are not awarded for regaining a position you left on purpose.
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He is not regaining position. He leaves a dominant position for a sub attempt, his opponent defends and guard is established after 3 secs. After that all reversals from guard are sweeps. BTW the omoplata sweep hardly ever ends in mount so he doesnt regain his initial position.
 
Sawoszao said:
Yes it is. Ask any IBJJF ref. Cross guard is a guard and its just like omoplata- hand between the legs. Guard doesnt have to involve your opponents leg between your legs. Where did you get that??

EDIT: Lol I just figured out how awkward "hand between legs" sounds ;)
Click to expand...

Well, it's in the rules...

International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation

F-) THE SWEEP: is when the athlete that is underneath has his opponent in his guard (in between his legs ) or the half guard (having one of his adversary’s legs between his) and is able to get on top of his adversary by inverting his position. 2 POINTS.
Click to expand...

Granted that this leaves room for interpretation, e.g. cross guard.

But the following doesn't, when it comes to the question at hand:

Observation 1: it will not be considered a sweep if the move does not begin from inside the guard or half guard.
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so I'll take that as a probably not, but worth questioning the ref just in case lol

i didn't think it was a clear case of yes or no. I'll just do it slow and controlled and maybe get a few bonus points out of it.
 
Come on guys this is starting to be stupid. Are you trying to say that if you go for an omoplata from guard someone defends it for 3 secs and than rolls forward you dont get points for a sweep?? Because thats what you are basicaly saying if you say omoplata is not a guard. Stop it. Please.
 
Come on guys this is starting to be stupid. Are you trying to say that if you go for an omoplata from guard someone defends it for 3 secs and than rolls forward you dont get points for a sweep?? Because thats what you are basicaly saying if you say omoplata is not a guard. Stop it. Please.

As for the question at hand it was already answered:

Sawoszao said:
Depends for how long will you be in a stable position on the bottom. If its 3 secs it means you established a guard position and any reversals from there will count as sweeps e.g. give you 2 points. If you hold the position on bottom for less than 3 secs than it will not count as a sweep because there was no guard established. Thats if were talking IBJJF rules.
Hope that helps.

.
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Sawoszao said:
Come on guys this is starting to be stupid. Are you trying to say that if you go for an omoplata from guard someone defends it for 3 secs and than rolls forward you dont get points for a sweep?? Because thats what you are basicaly saying if you say omoplata is not a guard. Stop it. Please.
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Let me try again, as you seem to miss the point:

If I am in the guard and go for the omoplata and sweep the guy --> POINTS (as I initiated the sweep from my guard and NO the omoplata itself is not a guard)

If I go for the omoplata from mount, roll under and roll him again --> NO points.

Here is a scenario: I have mount, go for the armbar, he stacks me (gets on top) and I manage to push him back down (while hanging on to the armbar), then establish side control --> No points, because all this was taking place, while he was defending a sub.
Same with an omoplata attempt from mount.
---

There was actually a debate (not sure if the IBJJF cleared that up yet) that you DON'T get sweep points for omoplata from guard even, depending on if

a) I sweep him actively or
b) he rolls himself to escape the pressure --> no points
 
ShanghaiBJJ said:
Let me try again, as you seem to miss the point:

If I am in the guard and go for the omoplata and sweep the guy --> POINTS (as I initiated the sweep from my guard and NO the omoplata itself is not a guard)

If I go for the omoplata from mount, roll under and roll him again --> NO points.

Here is a scenario: I have mount, go for the armbar, he stacks me (gets on top) and I manage to push him back down (while hanging on to the armbar), then establish side control --> No points, because all this was taking place, while he was defending a sub.
Same with an omoplata attempt from mount.
---

There was actually a debate (not sure if the IBJJF cleared that up yet) that you DON'T get sweep points for omoplata from guard even, depending on if

a) I sweep him actively or
b) he rolls himself to escape the pressure --> no points
Click to expand...

You omitted the other part of my post on purpose or are you partially blind??
As for the debate. Who had the debate?? Because there is no effin difference if he rolls to escape or is sweeped actively. Same as you go for a toehold opponent starts to roll and you end up on top- thats a SWEEP. Watch mundials or pan ams or whatever.
Do you have any proof it isnt a guard?? I admit I dont have any it is but Ill search for one.
And no. It doesnt matter if he is defending a sub or not. Where have you found it?? Its the same as with "the leg between legs" it is in the rules but in different context,
 
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Sawoszao said:
You omitted the other part of my post on purpose or are you partially blind??
As for the debate. Who had the debate?? Because there is no effin difference if he rolls to escape or is sweeped actively. Same as you go for a toehold opponent starts to roll and you end up on top- thats a SWEEP. Watch mundials or pan ams or whatever.
Do you have any proof it isnt a guard?? I admit I dont have any it is but Ill search for one.
And no. It doesnt matter if he is defending a sub or not. Where have you found it?? Its the same as with "the leg between legs" it is in the rules but in different context,
Click to expand...

I just quoted your post, which means whatever you quoted does not appear. You need to chill a little.

Why are turning this into an argument rather than a discussion?
 
Im sorry if it feels that way :)
Anyways I disagree with a lot of things you say but I have no proof so I will try to search for some :)
 
Here's a question:
Say I have mount and lock up an arm triangle. Then I hop over to the side to finish. After three or more seconds I return to mount. Do I get four points for returning to mount?

It seems to me that the fundamental issue is that I'm choosing to give up position. I don't see why it being a submission attempt changes that.
 
ShanghaiBJJ said:
No it isn't. It is a submission attempt. Any 'guard' HAS to involve any part of my opponents LEG between my leg(s).
Click to expand...

F-) THE SWEEP: is when the athlete that is underneath has his opponent in his guard (in between his legs ) or the half guard (having one of his adversary’s legs between his) and is able to get on top of his adversary by inverting his position. 2 POINTS.

It is basically saying that guard = (in between his legs)

It doesn't say his leg has to be between your legs, it could be his head, it could be his torso, it could be his arm, the only time his leg is between your legs is half-guard.

As to the question at hand sawoszao is exactly correct. OP doesn't state whether he ends up on the bottom in the sub attempt or wether opponent turns on their side when you attempt the omoplata and they just roll out. You have to end up on the bottom for a guard to be considered.
Because "when the athlete that is underneath has his opponent" is specified in the rules.
 
theglendon said:
Here's a question:
Say I have mount and lock up an arm triangle. Then I hop over to the side to finish. After three or more seconds I return to mount. Do I get four points for returning to mount?
Click to expand...

No points for that one!
 
I got the impression in this thread that if you were under side and completely rolled the guy over so you reversed and took sidemount....you wouldn't get points. Because you weren't doing it from a guard.

I know in NAGA they call that a "full reversal" or something and you would get points, they really don't recognize that under other rules? I mean, maybe it's not sweep points, but points for sidemount, right?
 
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