Most painful submission?

[genkisudo69]

bicep slicer & calf cruncher

 

[Bama Zulu]

for me it was an ankle lock

 

[TheHighlander]

The original question is what is the most painful submission that causes the least permanent damage...

Pain is a sign that damage to the human body is occurring, usually due to some type of sub in the case of grappling. So, IMO, it is really tough to maximize pain and minimize the chance of permanent damage. I think we'd all agree that a sub feels more and more painful as it is applied longer and longer, which ultimately increases your chance of permanent damage. And, in the wrong hands, ANY sub can cause damage (from short-lasting to long-lasting) if not released in an appropriate amount of time.

Not quite true. Pain is just nerves firing. Most joints don't have nerves per se, but there are nerves usually nearby. Pain doesn't indicate joint damage but the potential for joint damage. You can maximize the pain by attacking areas with high concentrations of nerves and minimize damage by attacking more stable joints (or better yet, not attacking joints at all, or least only peripherally).

Therefore, for most painful sub, I'd vote heel hook.

No. Actually, that's the main reason the heel hook has such a bad reputation -- there isn't much (if any) pain. By the time you get pain you are already experiencing significant damage.

For least permanent damage, a properly applied RNC.
For most painful but least permanent damage, even if done by a noob who doesn't release it in time, I'd vote wrist lock or straight foot lock.

Wrist locks inflict permanent damage relatively easily and you typically have to crank them pretty hard to prevent escape which enhances the danger. Straight foot locks aren't particularly painful either, at least not at levels of minimal damage, but you mileage may vary.

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

Not quite true. Pain is just nerves firing. Most joints don't have nerves per se, but there are nerves usually nearby. Pain doesn't indicate joint damage but the potential for joint damage. You can maximize the pain by attacking areas with high concentrations of nerves and minimize damage by attacking more stable joints (or better yet, not attacking joints at all, or least only peripherally).



No. Actually, that's the main reason the heel hook has such a bad reputation -- there isn't much (if any) pain. By the time you get pain you are already experiencing significant damage.



Wrist locks inflict permanent damage relatively easily and you typically have to crank them pretty hard to prevent escape which enhances the danger. Straight foot locks aren't particularly painful either, at least not at levels of minimal damage, but you mileage may vary.

I guess our experiences differ then.
The one heeel hook I experienced (because I just won't roll anymore with anybody who's looking to slap one on) gave me HUGE pain, as it happened and even afterward. Thankfully, no "permanent" damage. But my knee was swollen for days and took weeks to recover fully. To me, that's pain. Granted, I've had pretty bad knee injuries all my life to begin with from other sports.
Likewise, I find wrist locks and ankle locks to be way more painful as they happen than other subs (i.e. kimura, omoplata, armbar). I actually have pretty flexible wrists and ankles, likely from so many sprains over the years from other sports. So maybe my pain tolerance is a little higher on those joints, or maybe it's because I tend to tap a little slower on those than, say, omoplata, since my shoulders are SUPER tight from many bouts of tendinitis and partial rotator cuff tears from heavy lifting. As such, I tap pretty quickly to anything that starts to wrench them even slightly.
Just my experiences and opinions...

 

[thecas]

I vote Slicer and crunches too.

 

[Hamit Aktas]

The submission that does the least amount of damage and hurts the most is the Achilles hold.

 

[HEN]

Its got to be the bicep slicer ive only ever tapped two people with this but when i did they tapped the second it was on. Also while drilling it with a partner i found myself tapping before it was even on to avoid the pain.

 

[IMP]

btw trachea chokes are nasty...
i.e. guillotine with your wrist

 

[stephensharp]

You guys need to learn how to read, or train some, if you're answering "painful moves that don't cause permanent damage" with "heel hook, neck crank, Kimura..."

 

[nick889]

Bicep slicer, calf crank or heel hook. heel hook can ruin you for life

 

[triso]

lol @ stephensharp.

This is one of those threads where people only read the first couple of lines of the first post.

I guess everyone has an opinion on the most painful or damaging submission, since they all went with that and started posting.

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

In your opinion what's the most painful submission that causes the least amount of permanent damage,?

"In your opinion..."

Yes, it appears that everyone has (and is entitled to) an opinion on this topic. Since pain is such a subjective thing to measure, opinions are about all you could get on this one.

 

[Madmick]

The old American freestylin' "Banana Split" was always good enough for me.

 

[CanadianStriker]

A neck crank is the worst and can damage someone for a long time

 

[villasenor]

americana

 

[David McGraw]

wrist locks suck if put in quickly. Also, neck cranks, kind of ankle or heel lock, and the bicep slicer of course is extremely painful. But if your looking for the least amount of damage I would say wrist lock or bicep slicer. You could break a wrist with the wrist lock but at least the person won't be in a wheelchair.

 

[dutchmasterj3]

Neck Crank, or a crucifix. Neck cranks are for pussies though....

 

[TheHighlander]

I guess our experiences differ then.
The one heeel hook I experienced (because I just won't roll anymore with anybody who's looking to slap one on) gave me HUGE pain, as it happened and even afterward. Thankfully, no "permanent" damage. But my knee was swollen for days and took weeks to recover fully. To me, that's pain. Granted, I've had pretty bad knee injuries all my life to begin with from other sports.

If it was swollen then it was definitely damaged. Glad to hear there weren't any permanent effects. For the majority of people, the main reason the heel hook is so dangerous is that there isn't pain until after the damage starts. Most joint locks result in pain before any significant damage (i.e. enough to induce swelling or worse).

Likewise, I find wrist locks and ankle locks to be way more painful as they happen than other subs (i.e. kimura, omoplata, armbar). I actually have pretty flexible wrists and ankles, likely from so many sprains over the years from other sports. So maybe my pain tolerance is a little higher on those joints, or maybe it's because I tend to tap a little slower on those than, say, omoplata, since my shoulders are SUPER tight from many bouts of tendinitis and partial rotator cuff tears from heavy lifting. As such, I tap pretty quickly to anything that starts to wrench them even slightly.
Just my experiences and opinions...

Ok, that explains that choice then. Those with flexible wrists and ankles may feel pain for longer before damage occurs, unless you have a nervous system like mine (I barely register discomfort until damage is just about to occur). I've noticed less variation with ankles in terms of damage (lots of variation in pain response) than with wrists. Wrist locks on some people cause damage very quickly, while others can take quite a bit of pressure. I've trained a lot with wrist locks and my current opinion is that I typically don't want to try to use them unless I plan to break the wrist.

 

[thecas]

americana

I understand y u said americana instead of kimura. Does any1 else find it like me that Kimura seems to dislodge your arm more even though they both look similar?

 

[Bolaojj]

Bicep slicer, calf cruncher, achilles lock, wrist locks, and the twister, none of them really do any major damage (although any of them can) but can be painful as hell.