Most BJJ Fighters Can't Wrestle Because They Aren't Humble Like Maia, Says Askren

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“Jiu Jitsu guys have no takedowns,” he said. “And we saw it with Kron Gracie. Kron Gracie is legit a very high-level grappler. This man won the ADCC’s. I can’t remember what year right now, but he won the ADCC’s, and yet he looked clueless. He looked absolutely freaking clueless on how to get a takedown last Saturday night! It was ridiculous! It’s not like Cub Swanson was a high-level division-one wrestler!

“And so one of the things that I actually appreciate and like about Demian, is that he’s a Jiu Jitsu guy who kind of put his ego away and said, 'Okay, well, I am a Jiu Jitsu guy, but I’m gonna learn how to wrestle so I can take people down and then do my Jiu Jitsu from there.' And I like that. And I don’t think enough Jiu Jitsu people do that. And I think if more people followed Demian’s lead they would be better off.”

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2019/10/18/20920240/ufc-singapore-ben-askren-on-demian-maia-fight-jiu-jitsu-guys-have-no-takedowns-mma-news
I agree, but to a degree.
Because while I do think every fighter needs to evolve on all areas and become (at least) "OK" everywhere in order to compete nowadays.

But on Kron's example, I understand he wanted to see how he would fare standing up, and as such, this is not really indicative of how his grapplin evolved.
And I recall Maia did the exact same thing (against Weidman). He said he wanted to see if he could KO someone, and in order to put an honest effort, he had to NOT go to the ground with Weidman, even if it cost him the fight (which it did).
Granted, he was supposed to fight Bisping, but it is irrelevant.
One fight is not indicative of anything (given the above variables). Kron might have a great TakeDown game; we just didn't see this time.
Let us not forget he was coming of 5 wins, all via submission, so at some point, the fight went to the ground.
 
You haven’t seen Prime Aldo buddeh. He has phenomenal BJJ.

1. He was in cruise mode against Hominick (Hominick literally had like 30 seconds of offense in a 25 minute fight) and the Holloway fights came against a decrepit, two round cardio Aldo.

2. Watch the early fights in his career where he used grappling a lot more. Even during his prime with Mike Brown, Korean Zombie, Mendes, etc. the way he passes guard with authority is something beautiful. Once Aldo took top position, they couldn’t peel him off.

You need to do some homework.


Hominick had only 30 seconds of offense? Maybe you should watch the fight... he spent more time than that in full mount against aldo.

Aldo dominated the first 3 rounds but the last two were mostly hominick and media outlets as well as the judges basically scored it that way (although judges gave aldo 10-8 in an early round)

Sherdog scored it 48-47 which I agree was pretty accurate
 
I'm pretty tired of these people saynig that Kron vs Cub was a total domination, the fight was close, though Cub is the fair winner. Won all 3 rounds.
I know you guys all expected Kron to finish Cub like Maia did to a hundred other people, but just because he wasn't able to score a TD and submit doesn't mean he got steamrolled.

Props to Cub, he's a nice guy and I really wanted him to win (had him lost he'd be in quite of a dreaded position, 4L streak. We're better off having him around), yet let's not downplay Kron, for a BJJ fighter he actually stood really well on feet.
 
That got me wondering who is the opposite-Maia? Wrestling based fighter that got good at BJJ for finishes?
 
I agree, but to be fair, one-dimensional elite wrestlers usually do a lot better in MMA than one-dimensional elite BJJ guys....as long as the wrestlers have decent sub-defense. When's the last time an elite BJJ guy with poor TDs and poor striking won a belt in the UFC....or even SF or Bellator? The difference is that wrestlers can often dictate where the fight goes to due TDs, while BJJ guys just pull guard and beg people to come to the ground.
This is true, but Askren is really the upper limit of what a wrestler can achieve if they don't learn anything else. Against high level opponents, he's gonna find himself in trouble if he can't get the quick TD and has to strike.

There's levels to this game, and while Bellator Is catching up, it's not on the UFC's level - and was much worse during Askren's days there.

He should take his own advice and round out his game. Otherwise, the Masvidal fight won't be his only KO loss
 
I think it depends on the martial artist.

As an example, Maia landed a beautiful takedown on Chael and even defended Chael's takedowns. Overall wrestling is more geared toward the TD's but what wrestling lacks is the SHEER versatility of finishing the fight once it hits the ground.

But every wrestler trains and learns bjj when they go to mma but bjj guys dont learn to wrestle as much. So Askren's point stands in general.
 
I would've liked BJ to use his boxing, but also mix it up with wrestling to get the fight to the ground and use his BJJ. .
Outside of the Diego fight(or the fights at 170 even then he took nick down, Fitch,) he did do that.
 
This is true, but Askren is really the upper limit of what a wrestler can achieve if they don't learn anything else. Against high level opponents, he's gonna find himself in trouble if he can't get the quick TD and has to strike.

There's levels to this game, and while Bellator Is catching up, it's not on the UFC's level - and was much worse during Askren's days there.

He should take his own advice and round out his game. Otherwise, the Masvidal fight won't be his only KO loss

Yep, and of his best Bellator wins, Koreshkov was very green and Lima wasn't as good as he is now. Lima-Askren could go either way now (Lima still has weak TDD as shown in the Rory fight), but Lawler and Masvidal showed a good striker only need a small window of time to inflict heavy damage on Askren.
 
He looked absolutely freaking clueless on how to get a takedown last Saturday night!
As opposed to him looking clueless that it's an MMA fight and maybe not telegraphing a takedown and running right in to a knee?
 
Outside of the Diego fight(or the fights at 170 even then he took nick down, Fitch,) he did do that.
The Fitch fight he used it as a surprise attack. Most of his fights he used superior boxing/hand speed for victory. He fell in love with boxing. In his fights with Edgar (when the sport caught up with him) he fought a guy with better boxing who mixed in takedowns/wrestling. In his lightweight run it was just boxing. He barely did anything else, no kicking. The sport is evolving. Look what jones did to Rampage (who has very good boxing). Jones used his kicking and Rampage couldn't do anything. It's sad what happened to BJ. The sport passed him by.
 
Honestly don’t know if that is relevant or not but in Brazil wrestling is practically abandoned as a sport and MA.
Greco was the most popular form and i can tell from the time i lived there you can’t find a place to learn that easy.
Only place i found a traditional grappling team when i was a kid was in a private athletic club.
This was 25 years ago,today i can’t tell,but the lack of styles to evolve with may be one of the reasons why some BJJ schools lack more fluidity on the transition.

That and the arrogance some clans have.
 
That's not true at all.

Wrestlers have access to the best BJJ training in the world, the way everyone else does. The reverse is not true for BJJ guys. It is very difficult to get good at wrestling, unless you did it in school. Access to it just doesn't exist at the same level, the way it does for BJJ. It's not as simple as just putting your ego away. The wrestling practices done in an MMA gym or even going to a wrestling club still won't provide anywhere near the level of training that someone like Askren can easily find for BJJ.
There's plenty of high-level wrestling training available for professional fighters - GSP started as a striker, but he saw his weaknesses and worked on them.

The issue is that BJJ specialists will tend to stick with their core skillset more than other specialists. Lose a fight by UD because you couldn't get a TD? Go back and hit the mats twice as much for your next fight. Got KO'd because you have no striking defense? Better work on your BJJ so you don't get knocked out again. That's the mentality that a lot of BJJ guys have. Certainly not all, but especially among, for example, the Gracie family.

Ironically, it's also the mentality that Askren has. Having trouble in the UFC due to a complete lack of striking ability? Better train wrestling some more to avoid striking in the first place!

Even Khabib has learned to strike and tagged Conor well enough to knock him down. What's Askren's excuse?

At this point Maia is getting pretty old and I'm not sure how he'll deal with Askren's wrestling. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Maia pieces him up, at least a little, on the feet. K1 Maia used to be a joke around here, but compared to Askren's level of striking, he's practically a K1 GP winner.
 
Aldo never uses his BJJ lol

He only shoots for desperation takedowns when he is hurt or gassed, i.e. Hominick and Holloway fights

You're wrong.
 
There's plenty of high-level wrestling training available for professional fighters - GSP started as a striker, but he saw his weaknesses and worked on them.

The issue is that BJJ specialists will tend to stick with their core skillset more than other specialists. Lose a fight by UD because you couldn't get a TD? Go back and hit the mats twice as much for your next fight. Got KO'd because you have no striking defense? Better work on your BJJ so you don't get knocked out again. That's the mentality that a lot of BJJ guys have. Certainly not all, but especially among, for example, the Gracie family.

Ironically, it's also the mentality that Askren has. Having trouble in the UFC due to a complete lack of striking ability? Better train wrestling some more to avoid striking in the first place!

Even Khabib has learned to strike and tagged Conor well enough to knock him down. What's Askren's excuse?

At this point Maia is getting pretty old and I'm not sure how he'll deal with Askren's wrestling. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Maia pieces him up, at least a little, on the feet. K1 Maia used to be a joke around here, but compared to Askren's level of striking, he's practically a K1 GP winner.
Askren tried to learn striking but he sucked and his strengths (wrestling,BJJ) suffered because of it. It was a better move to stick with wrestling,bjj, and gnp since that's where his greatest strength is. Fighters should absolutely evolve but also they should stick with what works and not try to be something they aren't.
 
That’s not necessarily true. There’s different schools and styles of BJJ and there’s a huge ignorant misconception here on the forum that it’s all one big old school guard based nonsense.

Most dudes here don’t train or are just in such McDojos with watered down belts that they wouldn’t recognize the difference:

For example you have the Carlson Gracie lineage which is Takedown/Top Game heavy like Arona, Filho, Penn, Aldo, etc. VERY suited for MMA.

Cesar Gracie has very aggressive submission driven fighters.

then you have other lineages more suited for BJJ tourneys which is a lot the guard flopping spam you get in the UFC.
Thanks for putting everything in bold and stroking your own intelligence.
 
Askren tried to learn striking but he sucked and his strengths (wrestling,BJJ) suffered because of it. It was a better move to stick with wrestling,bjj, and gnp since that's where his greatest strength is. Fighters should absolutely evolve but also they should stick with what works and not try to be something they aren't.
That's a very...contradictory statement

Everyone sucks at striking when they first learn it. Sticking with it is how you get better. If Askren continues to fight in the UFC, he's going to face someone he can't take down immediately, and then he's going to get KTFO'd. And then it'll happen again. And again.

Getting older isn't exactly helping him, either.

If you only "stick with what works" then a good fighter will know what's coming and be ready for it. Exhibit A: Askren vs Masvidal.

Evolution is the key in MMA. One-trick ponies are a thing of the past, at least as far as champions go.
 
That's a very...contradictory statement

Everyone sucks at striking when they first learn it. Sticking with it is how you get better. If Askren continues to fight in the UFC, he's going to face someone he can't take down immediately, and then he's going to get KTFO'd. And then it'll happen again. And again.

Getting older isn't exactly helping him, either.

If you only "stick with what works" then a good fighter will know what's coming and be ready for it. Exhibit A: Askren vs Masvidal.

Evolution is the key in MMA. One-trick ponies are a thing of the past, at least as far as champions go.
Were assuming Askren would have been a better striker if he had stuck with it. That's not necessarily true. He was training striking and ignoring wrestling early in his MMA career and almost lost the Hieron fight (some argue he did) because of it. I think that's when he realized he needed to stick with his wrestling and he needed to improve his bjj and gnp instead of focusing on stand up fighting. There's no guarantee he would have been as successful as he was if he had went a different way. Remember his only loss is a 2 second flying knee. He's not the best example a person could use for not evolving.
 
You might think this is funny, but wrestling is the oldest martial art known to man (and beast). If wrestling didn't "invent" double legs, then what martial art did?

it's like saying english invented how to communicate. And wrestling in one form or another existed in brazil too. Wrest
 
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