Most BJJ Fighters Can't Wrestle Because They Aren't Humble Like Maia, Says Askren

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Communion said:
Having a "black belt in Judo" and being an elite Judoka isn't the same thing. It's the same difference between a D1 wrestler and "I wrestled in high school".

The elite Judokas in MMA have excellent takedowns, there just haven't been that many.
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Fair enough, but who do you consider elite? Karo? Lombard? I thought Lombard's grappling looked very good at WW unless he gassed, but it was nothing special at MW. Akiyama? He tossed Jake Shields like Lombard did, but couldn't force and keep most opponents on the ground like an elite wrestler would. Going way back, Christophe Leininger was an Olympic alternate. He looked decent vs. Ken Shamrock until Ken crossfaced him and then dominated him and finished the fight. He also had great throw on one of the other Lion's Den guys (Bohlander maybe?) but ultimately lost the fight.

I've yet to see a pure judo guy take down opponents (especially other wrestlers) anything like prime GSP, Khabib, Usman, etc.
 
ReadWrite said:
I think Ben has a valid point, but people have been saying the same kind of thing about him not learning to box. And added that he is content not to learn how to become a skilled striker, relying on his wrestling.
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Great rebuttal. Askren is an idiot and a hypocrite to boot.
 
Hardkore said:
Great rebuttal. Askren is an idiot and a hypocrite to boot.
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I agree, but to be fair, one-dimensional elite wrestlers usually do a lot better in MMA than one-dimensional elite BJJ guys....as long as the wrestlers have decent sub-defense. When's the last time an elite BJJ guy with poor TDs and poor striking won a belt in the UFC....or even SF or Bellator? The difference is that wrestlers can often dictate where the fight goes to due TDs, while BJJ guys just pull guard and beg people to come to the ground.
 
I agree. Kron showed nothing beyond a rudimentary boxing game. A little bit of offensive wrestling would go a long way.
 
mkt said:
I agree, but to be fair, one-dimensional elite wrestlers usually do a lot better in MMA than one-dimensional elite BJJ guys....as long as the wrestlers have decent sub-defense. When's the last time an elite BJJ guy with poor TDs and poor striking won a belt in the UFC....or even SF or Bellator? The difference is that wrestlers can often dictate where the fight goes to due TDs, while BJJ guys just pull guard and beg people to come to the ground.
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Oh I'm not disputing whether wrestlers tend to do better than straight BJJ guys, I'm merely pointing out Askren's hypocrisy
 
JustOnce said:
Yeah because wrestling invented double legs. lol
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You might think this is funny, but wrestling is the oldest martial art known to man (and beast). If wrestling didn't "invent" double legs, then what martial art did?
 
I think there might be some truth to this in the past. But I think the newer breed is mainly growing up doing everything. The classes I've been a part of (I'm no expert) always mix wrestling in with the BJJ as well. But maybe that was just the few classes I've been a part of.
 
Maia takedowns are really a mixture of wrestling and Judo. The true is more like Maia is a black belt in Judo and can adapt wrestling easier. Same applies to Jacare, arona and filho. All black belt in judo, actually Filho was very legit in Judo.

Kron just like Diaz Bros are pure Jiu-Jitsu guys. Do you think conor doesn't train wrestling? And yet....
 
Hardkore said:
Great rebuttal. Askren is an idiot and a hypocrite to boot.
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This would be valid if Ben's wrestling and BJJ didn't carry him to a 19-1 record with his only loss being by flying knee in 2 seconds. What would boxing have done for him? Last I checked, combining BJJ and Wrestling is considered MMA. That's like me saying Khabib sucks unless he becomes proficient in Muay Thai.
 
vanillaisis said:
This would be valid if Ben's wrestling and BJJ didn't carry him to a 19-1 record with his only loss being by flying knee in 2 seconds. What would boxing have done for him? Last I checked, combining BJJ and Wrestling is considered MMA.
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19-1 fighting subpar competition
 
Your title is misleading. I think Askren is saying more "Most BJJ aren't good at wrestling b/c they won't set their egos aside to actually train wrestling.". You don't have to be humble to be a wrestler. Wrestlers are some of the most arrogant people I've ever met.
 
Hardkore said:
You just started watching mma?
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If you're winning then why change up your strategy? That doesn't sound very smart. Your point would have been valid if Ben was losing because of his shit standup.
 
vanillaisis said:
If you're winning then why change up your strategy? That doesn't sound very smart. Your point would have been valid if Ben was losing because of his shit standup.
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Like I said you just started watching
 
Maia is also 41 with way more MMA experience. Maia has great JJ but I would no longer call him a JJ fighter but a MMA fighter.

Also doesnt Gurgel JJ utilize takedowns?
 
mkt said:
Fair enough, but who do you consider elite? Karo? Lombard? I thought Lombard's grappling looked very good at WW unless he gassed, but it was nothing special at MW. Akiyama? He tossed Jake Shields like Lombard did, but couldn't force and keep most opponents on the ground like an elite wrestler would. Going way back, Christophe Leininger was an Olympic alternate. He looked decent vs. Ken Shamrock until Ken crossfaced him and then dominated him and finished the fight. He also had great throw on one of the other Lion's Den guys (Bohlander maybe?) but ultimately lost the fight.

I've yet to see a pure judo guy take down opponents (especially other wrestlers) anything like prime GSP, Khabib, Usman, etc.
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Well, we were talking about takedowns, not controlling opponents on the ground. All you mentioned above have excellent takedowns. I'd throw in Filho, Nastula, Fedor, Khabib (you mentioned him as a wrestler but is also a judoka), Ishii (though he's been just a brawler for a while), Harrison, Kelly, Rousey...

Jousett is looking good so far but is still just 2-0. Like I said, there really haven't been that many elite Judokas transition to MMA like there have been wrestlers. Most are Japanese dudes that go on to run schools somewhere in Japan and have no interest in MMA. That may change once fighters make more, but for now I think many prefer to make a solid living NOT getting punched in the face.

What they can do once on the ground is a different story, and many elite Judoka barely train newaza (ground fighting), but the original point of the thread was why can't BJJ train takedowns more. If an elite judoka also has an elite BJJ game, they'd be a tough fight for anyone.
 
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