More on Waxy Maize

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by fat_wilhelm, May 2, 2008.

  1. fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    When in doubt, ask Justin Harris.

    4/28/2008 2:17:45 PM - bob

    Question:

    Rob Kreider said at the Arnold strength seminar that we shouldn't use waxy maize cause it dosn't create an insulin surge? is this true?

    Answer:

    I've written extensively on this. Those commenting on waxy maize's effects on insulin production are, for the most part, speaking on an urelated subject.

    Insulin is secreted in response to blood sugar. 100g of carbs will produce a resultant insulin production. Waxy maize won't produce the level of insulin surge for reasons that make it BETTER.

    The HIGH molecular weight and LOW osmolality of the waxy maize causes a rapid gastric clearance rate. This low osmolality dictates that monosacharides are taken to the blood streams very rapidly. HMW carbs replentish glycogen faster than LMW carbs.

    Sugar causes a huge insulin spike...this is good....when it FINALLY happens after 20min of drawing water into your stomach. By the time if finally gets to the small intestine, waxy maize has already been taken up to the muscle and is stored as glycogen.

    Imagine a race with a formula 1 car and a Bentley. Now, imagine that the formula 1 car has to be put together before it can start the race. Of course it is faster than the bentley when it finally gets going, but by then, the bentley has already finished the race.

    Insulin is very misunderstood by many people.

    What makes waxy maize good is its molecular weight. Measuring molecular weight isn't a unique or rare phenomenon. Molecular weight is covered in high school chemistry, and every chemistry class after that.

    The molecular weight of water would go as this:

    Water is 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom.
    The atomic weight of hydrogen is approximately 1.
    The atomic weight of oxygen is approximately 16.
    Take 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen, and you get a combined atomic weight for a single water molecule of 18.

    The molecular weight stems form the statement that one mole of water will have a mass of roughly 18 grams. (weight is used interchangeably here...although weight is only really a component of earth's gravity creating an acceleration of 9.8m/s. Since we don't typically measure molecular mass on other planets, weight and mass are used as the same with this)
    Look up hypotonicity online and you'll see why this is all important.

    A HMW carb in a 15% solution is as much as 20 TIMES as hypotonic as blood.

    Glucose based exercise drinks are often promoted as "isotonic" solutions. This is marketing to an uneducated consumer at its finest. The isotonicity of the drinks makes it a POOR choice for its intended use.

    There is actually a book called "Performance Functional Foods" that covers this topic in some depth. ​
     
  2. irc Brown Belt

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    Vitargo CGL ftw
     
  3. evilf22 Blue Belt

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  4. fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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  5. evilf22 Blue Belt

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    *tips hat*
     
  6. Vedic Purple Belt

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    Again I don't see what the big deal is.
     
  7. fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    What are you missing, exactly?

    edit: Nevermind... I just noticed it was you who posted that. I'm assuming you're referring to high GI carbs in general and not just waxy maize?
     
  8. ronin0352 Lift, Eat, Sleep, Repeat

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    OK, I'm confused. Is this saying that WMS is better than the maltodextrin/dextrose combo? I was under the impression that the difference in timing was almost non-existent.
     
  9. fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    That is what it's saying. Your impression is pretty common, but the differences between WMS and dex/malto combo seems to be one of the most misunderstood supplement topics around. Quite honestly, I still don't have a clue about any of it other than the fact that WMS works better for me and doesn't make me crash. That's why I posted the piece -- just another bit of info to try to take something from. I consider Justin Harris to be one of the great minds w/ regard to supplementation, so I tend to read his stuff w/ a lesser degree of cynicism.
     
  10. WCLegend90 Orange Belt

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    How does wazy maize change the mixability or taste of PWO powders?

    I'm about to order a custom from T.P. , so I want to know if I really want to switch from Mel/Dex.
     
  11. MikeMartial Black Belt

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    The GI clearance makes solid sense on why guys would like it that suffer from bloating from malt/dex.

    I read this this morning after coming off a 14 hr shift, and it didn't make sense. I read it when I woke up, and it does seem to make good sense, but something about the explanation is bugging me. After reading it a THIRD time, I think is the lack of complete explanation.

    The way I'm reading it (and this could very well be incorrect, I'm a bit of a zombie after my nights) is that:
    • WMS has a high molecular weight, causing it to be cleared from the GI tract extremely fast.
    • This fast clearance (and rapid uptake by skeletal muscle) essentially happens so quickly that a large insulin spike does NOT happen.
    In a nutshell, is that it? If so, that seems almost too good to be true; I'll freely admit I'm not a chemist, and have only a rudimentary knowledge base for chemistry. The second bullet is the one that's kind of bugging me. How is uptake from Gastric Tract--->Liver--->Skeletal Muscle so rapid that it does not cause an insulin spike? I was under the impression that the higher the amount of amylopectin, the high the GI.
     
  12. Vedic Purple Belt

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    Its because thats impossible Mike. Anything uptaken that quickly that isn't aminos in the intestines in a PWO window is directly a insulin precursor.

    But then again, why does it matter?

    Everyone though malto was great, same with other carb sources. They come and go, yet low GI continues to work no matter what FAD comes out.

    Its like its saying it is the best carb in the world for muscle building, and none of it gets wasted:icon_lol: thats comical.
     
  13. fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    I don't know, but wouldn't that substantiate user feedback indicating the absence of any sort of sugar crash potential? I'm going to see if I can track down Justin to weigh in on this.
     
  14. ronin0352 Lift, Eat, Sleep, Repeat

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    Damn, that figures. I just ordered 5 lbs of a PWO mix from True Protein using the dex/malto.:rolleyes: Oh well, I guess I'll see how it works for me and use that as the basis for my next order. I've been using WMS but not crazy about the little clumps that never seem to break up. Thanks fatty, and I used your discount code for true protein and so did my boss.:icon_chee
     
  15. Vedic Purple Belt

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    Not really. You can crash from anything, simply a placebo effect even.
     
  16. Vedic Purple Belt

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    in the other thread i already stated why it seems silly to me. here is Alan Aragons take. If you don't know who he is, google it.


    "
    The speed of gastric emptying & glycogenesis is a nonissue if your total carb intake throughout the day is in check. WMS might have an advantage over palatinose in the case of an elite endurance athlete with multiple events in a single day. To reiterate some points I made in the past, the quick carb concept only applies to training in an overnight fasted state in the complete absence of preworkout carbs. Further, gastric emptying of a carb solution is drastically altered by the presence of other substrates, such as amino acids. Does anyone you know have protein with their carbs? But in the end it doesn't matter, because for BBers, lost glycogen is repleted within 24h, often sooner, since full depletion rarely occurs in most BB protocols that don't overdo training volume. Total amount of carbs is critical. Speed is trivial.

    If your pre and/or midworkout nutrition is dialed in, you'll still have elevated blood glucose, insulin, & AA even after your training bout is done. This nullifies the need for fast-acting carbs/protein postworkout, unless you've taken your muscles to FULL glycogen depletion and you've gotta hit the court, track, or field again in just a few hours. Otherwise, glycogen is fully repleted in 24 hours, even after complete depletion, regardless of carb source - with the exception of a 100% fructose or galactose as your sole carb source, which is far-fetched to say the least."




    I rest my case
     
  17. fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    I understand that, but when I used dex/malto, it was like clockwork if I didn't time my next meal right. 45 minutes or so after drinking my PWO, I'd get sweaty, shaky, etc. to a point where I could barely stand up. Not good. With WMS, I never crash, even if I miss my follow-up meal altogether. Definitely not placebo for me, at least.

    I've read similar results from others, though I've never quite understood it because the charts showing blood glucose vs. time for dex/malto and WMS look nearly identical.

    Justin's piece seems to say that similar blood sugar levels do not neccessarily mean similar insulin reactions, however, which would (seem to) make sense according to my own experience. That said, I admit that my true understanding of this whole deal is very limited... I simply go by what works for me.
     
  18. Vedic Purple Belt

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    and more from Alan

    "Okay, now that I got that out of the way, WMS is marketed to bodybuilders due to its greater speed of glycogenesis than straight glucose. Contrary to the hyped up figures listed in the ads, I did the math based on the single study in existence, and it's 23% faster. Therefore, if we apply the data to a bodybuilding workout, you'll be able to refill your glycogen stores in 4 hours with WMS versus 5 hours with dex. And you'll pay out the ass, for no significant difference. Especially since if you're smart, you'll have enough preworkout carbs for a handoff effect with the postworkout carbs. Realize that in the single study comparing WMS with glucose, an inapplicable dose of 300g was used, over a 4 hr period postworkout. This type of data is irrelevant to bodybuilders, but if you want to take your money & throw it in the fucking fireplace, be my guest."
     
  19. MikeMartial Black Belt

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    If you could get him to explain this further, that would be awesome. I know your experience with WMS is extremely positive, as with others.

    EDIT: Great input btw, Vedic.
     
  20. fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    I emailed Justin last night. We'll see if he's interested in adding to this.
     

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