MMA training techniques that have proven to be inneffective/outdated?

[JauntyAngle]

Does anybody train the Five-Finger Death Touch any more?

It's quite common- if this fly-on-the-wall documentary about an MMA training camp is accurate:

 

[GearSolidMetal]

although one thing I think probably works and isn't used by anybody currently, is the old school knuckle toughening techniques. Like Bruce Lee used to do. Like punching canvas bags filled with gravel, punching into a bucket of sand, makiwara boards...things like that. Seems to me like that kind of thing might help reduce risk of breaking your hand in a fight.

I'm a metalurgist, and in class I learned a few things about metal that I found to apply to anatomy.

For example, what does not bend, breaks. The hardest metals are sometimes the weakest, because they're brittle, not too different than diamonds. Diamonds are the hardest mineral on the planet, but you sure as hell wouldn't want to drop a 100 pound dumbell on one, because they're brittle.

With anatomy, Thai fighting training has children kick trees hundreds of times a day for years to develop harder leg bones. But what has recently been discovered is that process creates small cracks in the leg bones, which heal, and make the bones hard but also brittle. Therefore, that's why injuries such as what happened to A.Silva in his rematch against Weidman is much more common in Thai fighting than other combat sports.

I can only estimate that the same thing is true with the small bones of the hands, though I don't know of any fighters who have extensively trained with the knuckle 'strengthening' techniques or their history of hand injuries. I do know it's not a common practice among boxers, bare knuckle or not.

I'd say the Bruce Lee knuckle training has been proved to be a unique theory, but historically proven to be false.

 

[JauntyAngle]

I don't want to take the thread to far of course but could you recommend a brief article or something on it? or a starting point to learn a bit?

Strongly recommend Tudor Bompa's "Periodization Training for Sports":

http://www.amazon.com/Periodization-Training-Sports-3rd-Edition-Tudor/dp/1450469434

Amongst many, many other things, he gives what I think would be the "classical" approach to integrating plyometrics into an S&C programme for a non-strength athlete.

His system (which is relatively standard), divides strength training into linear blocks, that build up to the competion/in season period. The blocks go:

• Anatomical adaption- which is basically goofing around doing a tonne of different things
• Hypertrophy- basically 5x10 work, for athletes who need additional size only
• Max strength- typical 5x5, 5x3, doubles and singles power lifting stuff
• Conversion to power- various exercises amimed at helping you execute movements more specific to your sport powerfully

Nothing too surprising about this although he is a big advocate of tweaking the exercise selection to emphasize movements, limb angles, ROM etc that are similar to your sport.

With regard to integrating plyometrics, he would have those as part of the "conversion to power" phase, along with things like speed work and agility drills (many of which I guess are plyometric, I guess). IIRC this phase might be anything from 2-4 weeks. And particular plyos would not necessarily be done the whole time. I actually can't remember what he says about sets, reps, exercises and form. But I would imagine he says something along the lines of "medium number of sets, low reps, everything done fast and explosive"- the same as you do speed work or Oly lifting. Not like HIIT/muscular endurance stuff, which I think it is sometimes done as.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

And as far as the 1-inch-punch goes, it was more of a push than a punch.

Bruce Lee was an amazing physical specimen, quite possibly the finest example of strength and speed to be ever filmed. The illusion that it's not a punch, but a push, is hidden in his speed and strength.

If this was effective, you'd see MMA and Thai fighters use it in the clinch constantly. It is an amazing demonstration of martial arts illusion and folklore.

And I don't mean to insult Bruce Lee. I have the upmost respect for his role in the advancement of martial arts. However, I'm a realist, and look at things through the prizm of reality, and I call a spade a spade.

 

[Fenderson]

I'm a metalurgist, and in class I learned a few things about metal that I found to apply to anatomy.

For example, what does not bend, breaks. The hardest metals are sometimes the weakest, because they're brittle, not too different than diamonds. Diamonds are the hardest mineral on the planet, but you sure as hell wouldn't want to drop a 100 pound dumbell on one, because they're brittle.

With anatomy, Thai fighting training has children kick trees hundreds of times a day for years to develop harder leg bones. But what has recently been discovered is that process creates small cracks in the leg bones, which heal, and make the bones hard but also brittle. Therefore, that's why injuries such as what happened to A.Silva in his rematch against Weidman is much more common in Thai fighting than other combat sports.

I can only estimate that the same thing is true with the small bones of the hands, though I don't know of any fighters who have extensively trained with the knuckle 'strengthening' techniques or their history of hand injuries. I do know it's not a common practice among boxers, bare knuckle or not.

I'd say the Bruce Lee knuckle training has been proved to be a unique theory, but historically proven to be false.

Im not sure I agree with this. You hardly ever hear of thais breaking their legs. Its the westerners that are always the ones breaking their shins.

It seems mma fighters break the shin the most out of any of the fighting sports. Which are normally the athletes who hav'nt conditioned their shins anywhere near as much as thais.

Another point to make is that the human body is quite efficient at adapting to stress (eg skin callouses) . I can't understand why it would adapt to stress by making the bone weaker to impact. Another example is tearing the muscle fibres. If you stress the muscle is adapts and grows stronger. If you applied the same logic the muscle would be prone to tearing/injury. Which isnt the case.

 

[ripskater]

And as far as the 1-inch-punch goes, it was more of a push than a punch.

Bruce Lee was an amazing physical specimen, quite possibly the finest example of strength and speed to be ever filmed. The illusion that it's not a punch, but a push, is hidden in his speed and strength.

If this was effective, you'd see MMA and Thai fighters use it in the clinch constantly. It is an amazing demonstration of martial arts illusion and folklore.

And I don't mean to insult Bruce Lee. I have the upmost respect for his role in the advancement of martial arts. However, I'm a realist, and look at things through the prizm of reality, and I call a spade a spade.

Bruce had superior control over his body and was very fast twitch. He could generate incredible speed and power over 1 inch.

 

[Sano]

I'm a metalurgist, and in class I learned a few things about metal that I found to apply to anatomy.

For example, what does not bend, breaks. The hardest metals are sometimes the weakest, because they're brittle, not too different than diamonds. Diamonds are the hardest mineral on the planet, but you sure as hell wouldn't want to drop a 100 pound dumbell on one, because they're brittle.

With anatomy, Thai fighting training has children kick trees hundreds of times a day for years to develop harder leg bones. But what has recently been discovered is that process creates small cracks in the leg bones, which heal, and make the bones hard but also brittle. Therefore, that's why injuries such as what happened to A.Silva in his rematch against Weidman is much more common in Thai fighting than other combat sports.

I can only estimate that the same thing is true with the small bones of the hands, though I don't know of any fighters who have extensively trained with the knuckle 'strengthening' techniques or their history of hand injuries. I do know it's not a common practice among boxers, bare knuckle or not.

I'd say the Bruce Lee knuckle training has been proved to be a unique theory, but historically proven to be false.

A lot of conjecture going on there. Do you have stats showing that shin breaks are more common in thai boxing? Assuming it is, which sounds reasonable, maybe it's because they use them as primary weapons? My guess is that hand breaks are more common in pure boxing.

I think it's a bit more complicated than translating metallurgy to anatomi. The tibia, or shin, barely has any give as it is. I don't see how increasing bone density, as with wolfs law, would increase the risk of a break. Usually what gives are joints, muscles and tendons, not bones. At least not in adults anyway.

I'd argue that the reason Anderson broke his legs is a question of leverage and his slender frame and thin bones.

That being said, you have to be careful with something delicate as say your hands. I mean, you can definitely make it worse, and breaks usually leads to a less functioning and sturdy hand.

 

[ironwolf]

Bruce had superior control over his body and was very fast twitch. He could generate incredible speed and power over 1 inch.

Little known fact. Bruce lee identified himself as a woman. So, he had some seated issues (much like yourself you future trannie). He needed to work them out, he expressed himself by being the most badass male to ever live.

 

[ripskater]

Little known fact. Bruce lee identified himself as a woman. So, he had some seated issues (much like yourself you future trannie). He needed to work them out, he expressed himself by being the most badass male to ever live.

Relax man, no need for takin shots at me.

 

[Badger67]

I'm going to allow it. Proceed Ironwolf.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Kicking with ankle weights and shadow-boxing with dumbbells used to be a staple; these days not so much.


Vests would be good for loading push-ups and stuff, no?

The mask has been pretty well discredited for simulating altitude, since the concentration of oxygen in the air remains the same, but devices like the Powerbreathe do seem to work as resistance devices for the inspiratory muscles. Ironman is on board with them.

N.B. How much training the inspiratory muscles really benefits you is another question.

Vests can also be used for Cardio. No, not Running while wearing them, that's retarded. But you can get a good, joint-friendly workout simply by putting on the Vest and walking up and down a steep enough hill. For people who's joints are so fucked that even Hill Sprints are too much, Weighted Vest Walks could be the next best thing.

 

[Tosa]

I don't want to take the thread to far of course but could you recommend a brief article or something on it? or a starting point to learn a bit?

Jaunty made a good post answering this question. I did a quick search to see if there was a good, brief, article that would introduce plyometrics, and this is the best I found:

http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles...dy-plyometrics-in-improving-maximal-strength/

It's from the standpoint of plyometrics for improving max strength, but it's general enough to be relevant. Also, I'm surprised by the amount and level of crap that comes up when you google plyometrics. Terrible beyond even my low expectations.

 

[Kick Strickland]

OMG I just quit reading around post 20 and had to reply. So maybe some of this has been addressed already idk.

I'm a metalurgist, and in class I learned a few things about metal that I found to apply to anatomy.

For example, what does not bend, breaks. The hardest metals are sometimes the weakest, because they're brittle, not too different than diamonds. Diamonds are the hardest mineral on the planet, but you sure as hell wouldn't want to drop a 100 pound dumbell on one, because they're brittle.

With anatomy, Thai fighting training has children kick trees hundreds of times a day for years to develop harder leg bones. But what has recently been discovered is that process creates small cracks in the leg bones, which heal, and make the bones hard but also brittle. Therefore, that's why injuries such as what happened to A.Silva in his rematch against Weidman is much more common in Thai fighting than other combat sports.

I can only estimate that the same thing is true with the small bones of the hands, though I don't know of any fighters who have extensively trained with the knuckle 'strengthening' techniques or their history of hand injuries. I do know it's not a common practice among boxers, bare knuckle or not.

I'd say the Bruce Lee knuckle training has been proved to be a unique theory, but historically proven to be false.

GSM I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or not with several of these posts. Either way, I disagree with a lot of stuff you've said.

1. I'm pretty sure diamonds are hard as fuck bro. And dropping a 100 lb dumbbell on one is not gonna do anything. Ever heard of a diamond bit drill tip? You know why they use those? Because they don't break.

And as far as the 1-inch-punch goes, it was more of a push than a punch.

Bruce Lee was an amazing physical specimen, quite possibly the finest example of strength and speed to be ever filmed. The illusion that it's not a punch, but a push, is hidden in his speed and strength.

If this was effective, you'd see MMA and Thai fighters use it in the clinch constantly. It is an amazing demonstration of martial arts illusion and folklore.

And I don't mean to insult Bruce Lee. I have the upmost respect for his role in the advancement of martial arts. However, I'm a realist, and look at things through the prizm of reality, and I call a spade a spade.

Oh I love Bruce but here is where you and I agree. That 1 inch punch is nothing but stage magic. It's definitely a push, not to mention the guys sliding back 10 feet almost dive into their chairs and kick them back making them slide. It's complete horse shit. Bruce was an amazing specimen but he was also a stage performer, and sold a lot of his shit on attitude. You say something with enough conviction, people tend to believe it. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. Rogan does this all the time, and a lot of people eat it up and take it as fact. He used to convince women to eat donkey testicles for a living, just by screaming at them that they could do it, lol!

Im not sure I agree with this. You hardly ever hear of thais breaking their legs. Its the westerners that are always the ones breaking their shins.

It seems mma fighters break the shin the most out of any of the fighting sports. Which are normally the athletes who hav'nt conditioned their shins anywhere near as much as thais.

Another point to make is that the human body is quite efficient at adapting to stress (eg skin callouses) . I can't understand why it would adapt to stress by making the bone weaker to impact. Another example is tearing the muscle fibres. If you stress the muscle is adapts and grows stronger. If you applied the same logic the muscle would be prone to tearing/injury. Which isnt the case.

From my understanding the bones re-calcify bigger and more dense than they were before.

And about what somebody said earlier, I think muay thai fighters rarely break their legs, but may have more incidents of it than other sports....because they use that technique like 100X more than other kickboxing styles. Of course there will be more incidents of it happening, but given the amount of shin kicks and the amount of fighters fighting over in thailand, it's really rare to break their leg.

 

[daken7]

Running while wearing them, that's retarded.

#notsureifserious

 

[1rawdog]

...

...

Also, I'm surprised by the amount and level of crap that comes up when you google plyometrics. Terrible beyond even my low expectations.

Exactly what i needed, I have a basic understanding but would like to know more especially about how to fit it in. Separating the wheat from the chaff has looked to be time consuming to say the least, thanks for your help.

Edit:Thanks Romeo and Jaunty too, your quotes fell off, I'm still learning how to sherbro

 

[Badger67]

GSM I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or not with several of these posts. Either way, I disagree with a lot of stuff you've said.

1. I'm pretty sure diamonds are hard as fuck bro. And dropping a 100 lb dumbbell on one is not gonna do anything. Ever heard of a diamond bit drill tip? You know why they use those? Because they don't break.

As someone with friends who make knives for a living and who have to occasionally use diamond drills, see the rockwell scale for how increasing the hardness of a substance can actually make it more brittle. Diamonds are most assuredly hard, but they do wear down over time or if a hard enough substance with enough weight behind it hits it, it can chip/scratch, Though it does take a lot to do this.

 

[1rawdog]

Im not sure I agree with this. You hardly ever hear of thais breaking their legs. Its the westerners that are always the ones breaking their shins.

It seems mma fighters break the shin the most out of any of the fighting sports. Which are normally the athletes who hav'nt conditioned their shins anywhere near as much as thais.

Another point to make is that the human body is quite efficient at adapting to stress (eg skin callouses) . I can't understand why it would adapt to stress by making the bone weaker to impact. Another example is tearing the muscle fibres. If you stress the muscle is adapts and grows stronger. If you applied the same logic the muscle would be prone to tearing/injury. Which isnt the case.

A lot of conjecture going on there. Do you have stats showing that shin breaks are more common in thai boxing? Assuming it is, which sounds reasonable, maybe it's because they use them as primary weapons? My guess is that hand breaks are more common in pure boxing.

I think it's a bit more complicated than translating metallurgy to anatomi. The tibia, or shin, barely has any give as it is. I don't see how increasing bone density, as with wolfs law, would increase the risk of a break. Usually what gives are joints, muscles and tendons, not bones. At least not in adults anyway.

I'd argue that the reason Anderson broke his legs is a question of leverage and his slender frame and thin bones.

That being said, you have to be careful with something delicate as say your hands. I mean, you can definitely make it worse, and breaks usually leads to a less functioning and sturdy hand.

OMG I just quit reading around post 20 and had to reply. So maybe some of this has been addressed already idk.

GSM I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or not with several of these posts. Either way, I disagree with a lot of stuff you've said.

1. I'm pretty sure diamonds are hard as fuck bro. And dropping a 100 lb dumbbell on one is not gonna do anything. Ever heard of a diamond bit drill tip? You know why they use those? Because they don't break.


From my understanding the bones re-calcify bigger and more dense than they were before.

Quickly-

Be sure not to try to over simplify any of this stuff. The human body is in a constant state of turnover (rebuilding if you will) that is affected by all kinds of factors. Not sure if "environmental factors" is the right term here but the things you eat, the drugs you take, the air you breathe, the damage you take... all that type of stuff.

These things all together produce the new you every day. For example if you eat 20000 calories a day you will likely end up to be a fat slob. If you hang your arm out the window while driving all day you will likely end up with one arm more tan than the other.

Fenderson, muscle doesn't always adapt sometimes it does fail. The body doesn't always react the way that our conscious mind thinks it should.

Things like protein and collagen synthesis as well as calcium turnover don't always workout the way we would like. The integrity of the new structure is not always in our favor in all directions. Wolff's Law is a theory, I don't know too much about how it has been tested but I will leave you with a few examples and let you connect the dots.

You can probably pour a 20 foot tall 8 inch thick column of concrete, remove the forms and delicately balance a car on top of it but if you did not reinforce it with rebar or something similar an average 15 year old girl can take it down easily with one swing of a 10 lb sledge.

Most people would have no chance of breaking a closed car window no matter how hard they kicked or punched it but you can shatter one by lobbing a tiny piece of porcelain at it or tapping it on the edge with a hammer.

You can stand on eggs but if you drop them it's time to call the dog over.

 

[JRT6]

I love using weighed vests.

 

[Tosa]

Regarding this thread overall, I'd say there's a need to distinguish between things that are outright ineffective, and things that are effective in a particular context, but often misused in ineffective, and sometimes dangerous, ways.

 

[mikelmarion]

Sea-level Cain leg extentions