Law Mississippi Abortion Law in SCOTUS: Roe v. Wade in the Crosshairs

[PrinceOfPain]

No shit. We don’t do nearly enough, imo. People are afraid to have kids and be stuck with a major financial burden before they can get their shit together. Who’s picking up the kids from school at 2:40 when both parents have to work? How are they going to afford daycare or after care? What if a kid is sick and your job doesn’t let you work from home? We. Don’t. Do. Enough. Not even close. People more and more want to be financially stable first, which is totally understandable and responsible if you ask me. You want to reduce the number of abortions? Improve the social safety net.

That's not the only issue. The right wants to force people that made a mistake to care for children they're ill equipped to care for. Which is bad for those parents, and society as a whole because they often have poor outcomes and unpleasant lives. The same people trying to force others to live bytheir moral code want nothing to do with caring for these children, or providing sufficient resources to help these parents care for them. They stick their fingers in their ears and ignore the valid complaints that it's infringing on people's liberties, the foster care system is riddled with abusers, there aren't enough people willing to adopt.

They flat out ignore these problems and say just force them to have these kids and it'll work out somehow. We tried that. It doesn't magically work out somehow. If the same people trying to control other people's reproduction also wanted to offer more social aid, this would be a very different conversation.

Instead they just want to say people should magically just be better on their own and willfully ignore the data we have that shows that they will not.

Again, a trillion dollars in welfare.
You're saying "give more money" but the foundation of your argument seems to be that government doesn't know how to spend money (which, to be fair, is a very reasonable position).

But it's also very rare to find an American on the left who argues from the position or perspective of the unborn. There seems to be a lack compassion that isn't written down on a pre-existing civil rights script - so, rarely is value of any perspective but the mother's considered.
The foster care system being riddled with abusers is hardly a surprise - monsters like that will always be attracted to positions of authority over kids. But that's not the sort of position that the left takes on almost any other issue.
I mean, think about the logic here. Allowing these children to exist would be "bad for those parents, and society as a whole because they often have poor outcomes and unpleasant lives."
But consider that position when you're arguing with someone who understands the unborn as human life.

I saw someone mention illegal immigration earlier, so imagine the conservative argument against illegal immigration was "illegal immigrants often have poor outcomes and unpleasant lives - it's better for everyone if we kill them as soon as we catch them".
Now, I'm sure there are those who make that argument, but it's hardly a mainstream right-wing position.
Or, to take it to an even more absurd extreme, "Mexico's a pretty shitty place, most people there have poor outcomes and unpleasant lives. Plus, Mexicans keep illegally immigrating here - let's just nuke them now and save everyone the suffering later".
"The American white supremacist justice system is riddled with racist cops and tilted courts. So, black people are going to have poor outcomes and unpleasant lives - might as well just make it legal to gun them down in the streets."

It's a really sticky conversation, because one group of people doesn't seem to view abortion as the termination of genuine life, and without the motivation implicit in that perspective, they're going to have trouble finding a compromise with anyone from the group that does see it as the termination of genuine life.

 

[ElKarlo]

Why do you care if an unwanted kid is or isn’t born? Ostensibly it’s about the welfare of the child, no? And you think turning away families at the border (who presumably are facing horrible situations for their kids) will somehow help with the problem of unwanted kids being aborted, right? Or did I misunderstand? I will sincerely apologize if I did. Otherwise, it’s humorous to me. And for the record, I’m pro choice, but I am a big fan of making abortion as unnecessary as possible.

You’re running off the assumption that all immigration is based off of people being chased out by cartoon villains. You’re basing your belief on a false narrative

and if you’d can’t understand the difference between killing unborn babies and not letting people into a country, I’m not sure how I can engage in a debate with you

 

[Mike]

Again, a trillion dollars in welfare.
You're saying "give more money" but the foundation of your argument seems to be that government doesn't know how to spend money (which, to be fair, is a very reasonable position).

But it's also very rare to find an American on the left who argues from the position or perspective of the unborn. There seems to be a lack compassion that isn't written down on a pre-existing civil rights script - so, rarely is value of any perspective but the mother's considered.
The foster care system being riddled with abusers is hardly a surprise - monsters like that will always be attracted to positions of authority over kids. But that's not the sort of position that the left takes on almost any other issue.
I mean, think about the logic here. Allowing these children to exist would be "bad for those parents, and society as a whole because they often have poor outcomes and unpleasant lives."
But consider that position when you're arguing with someone who understands the unborn as human life.

I saw someone mention illegal immigration earlier, so imagine the conservative argument against illegal immigration was "illegal immigrants often have poor outcomes and unpleasant lives - it's better for everyone if we kill them as soon as we catch them".
Now, I'm sure there are those who make that argument, but it's hardly a mainstream right-wing position.
Or, to take it to an even more absurd extreme, "Mexico's a pretty shitty place, most people there have poor outcomes and unpleasant lives. Plus, Mexicans keep illegally immigrating here - let's just nuke them now and save everyone the suffering later".
"The American white supremacist justice system is riddled with racist cops and tilted courts. So, black people are going to have poor outcomes and unpleasant lives - might as well just make it legal to gun them down in the streets."

It's a really sticky conversation, because one group of people doesn't seem to view abortion as the termination of genuine life, and without the motivation implicit in that perspective, they're going to have trouble finding a compromise with anyone from the group that does see it as the termination of genuine life.

I can't speak for other people on the left and vice versa. I grew up very poor in rough environments. I've seen firsthand what life is like for people raised in the system. And for people that are raised by parents that were pressured into keeping them. That either didn't have the resources to raise them, didn't know how to, or more often both.

Most people that have never gone to the government for assistance because they grew up middle class, don't know how flawed and backwards the system is. If you want to just pop out children without a care while not working, you can get welfare checks, food stamps, and housing subsidies.

If you don't have kids or try to provide for them but don't have the skills or education to do so, the government essentially tells you to go fuck yourself. No housing subsidy, no cash allowance, no food stamps. You will be told you make too much to qualify even on minimum wage. Government employment programs will help you find work, menial dead end low paying work. Which isn't hard to find outside of nationwide recessions.

I saw this firsthand being raised by a single mother. That was proud and hardworking but uneducated and only able to get low paying jobs. We had to turn to churches and food banks to eat. Even though she was supporting two people on a meager income we couldn't get any help with housing and had to live in slums. We got SOME free medical care but it was limited and subpar.

I watched peers end up dead, mentally ill drug addicts, in prison, low level scum grifting off welfare, human shells ruined by abuse from unreliable parents. By the time I was a teen I was essentially left to my own devices. The hardships wore her down and eventually broke her until she turned into an awful person I didn't recognize.

Poverty is awful. It crushes the weak, hopeful, and gullible and decays many from the inside out and turns them into monsters. When you force people that can't provide for themselves to add more mouths to feed, everyone doesn't rise to the occasion. In my experience most don't, and as a society we have no safety net to help them when they fall short.

 

[StoneColdSteveAustin]

The part of this story that most people don’t want to discuss is that the American right wing doesn’t care if your baby starves to death or has 3rd world healthcare once it’s born.

they’ll let a child be born into the most horrendous conditions with blinking.


You can’t have it both ways.

 

[Tairy Hesticles]

But consider that position when you're arguing with someone who understands the unborn as human life.

That's really the entire argument here. When do you think human life begins, and when is it just a bunch of cells growing together? Certainly it can't be at the moment of conception, but obviously it isn't only once the baby comes out of the womb either. So where between those two moments does an embryo become life?

 

[Sara]

Taxpayers shouldn't foot the bill for someone's abortion.

I think (though I’m not sure) the countries that provide free abortions also provide free healthcare.

 

[Sara]

Also did the SC rule yet?

 

[cottagecheesefan]

Also did the SC rule yet?

they will not rule until the spring.

 

[Papi Chulo]

Even you can't possibly believe this. I'll grant you there are lot's of horny kids doing a lot of reckless shit. I see them all the time. I have a teenage daughter (thankfully a good girl so far). But I have never met or even heard of a single one saying, 'Don't worry, I can just get an abortion'.

For more anecdotal proof of this, I offer you the fact that red states with more pro life sentiment, and stricter abortion laws, while having the lowest teen abortion rates, generally have the highest teen birth rates. Which is not at all surprising. It's clear neither concerns about abortion or getting stuck with a kid mean jackety shit. They are fucking all the same. Why? Because they are young, stupid and horny.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/757792/us-abortion-rate-among-women-15-19-years-by-state/
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/teen-births/teenbirths.htm

For some it will

 

[HereticBD]

They are not available to everyone and outside of condoms, they are not that cheap. IUD's can cost north of a grand and birth control pills can cost 30-50 a month. Does not seem like much, buy try and swing it when you are working at Burger King.

So, not only are there multiple options, there are options for all budgets.

Give me the excuse why condoms aren't an easily affordable solution for everyone, and why it's somehow a struggle for people to use them to prevent pregnancy. This idea that abortions are necessary because we're just not there yet with birth control methods, is absurd. It comes down to personal responsibility.

 

[cottagecheesefan]

So, not only are there multiple options, there are options for all budgets.

Give me the excuse why condoms aren't an easily affordable solution for everyone, and why it's somehow a struggle for people to use them to prevent pregnancy. This idea that abortions are necessary because we're just not there yet with birth control methods, is absurd. It comes down to personal responsibility.

maybe he has a micro peen and the condoms don't fit. I wonder if they are micro condoms, similar to the giant sized ones I use.

 

[lilelvis]

Imagine the heinous shit the gubment is really up to when they throw fuel on the abortion debate..
The distraction that keeps on giving…

 

[Denter]

I can't speak for other people on the left and vice versa. I grew up very poor in rough environments. I've seen firsthand what life is like for people raised in the system. And for people that are raised by parents that were pressured into keeping them. That either didn't have the resources to raise them, didn't know how to, or more often both.

Most people that have never gone to the government for assistance because they grew up middle class, don't know how flawed and backwards the system is. If you want to just pop out children without a care while not working, you can get welfare checks, food stamps, and housing subsidies.

If you don't have kids or try to provide for them but don't have the skills or education to do so, the government essentially tells you to go fuck yourself. No housing subsidy, no cash allowance, no food stamps. You will be told you make too much to qualify even on minimum wage. Government employment programs will help you find work, menial dead end low paying work. Which isn't hard to find outside of nationwide recessions.

I saw this firsthand being raised by a single mother. That was proud and hardworking but uneducated and only able to get low paying jobs. We had to turn to churches and food banks to eat. Even though she was supporting two people on a meager income we couldn't get any help with housing and had to live in slums. We got SOME free medical care but it was limited and subpar.

I watched peers end up dead, mentally ill drug addicts, in prison, low level scum grifting off welfare, human shells ruined by abuse from unreliable parents. By the time I was a teen I was essentially left to my own devices. The hardships wore her down and eventually broke her until she turned into an awful person I didn't recognize.

Poverty is awful. It crushes the weak, hopeful, and gullible and decays many from the inside out and turns them into monsters. When you force people that can't provide for themselves to add more mouths to feed, everyone doesn't rise to the occasion. In my experience most don't, and as a society we have no safety net to help them when they fall short.

Thanks for this post. Most people are familiar with the phrase "power corrupts" but the corollary is that, in my experience, a complete lack of power corrupts much more quickly and absolutely.

 

[sickc0d3r]

You’re running off the assumption that all immigration is based off of people being chased out by cartoon villains. You’re basing your belief on a false narrative

and if you’d can’t understand the difference between killing unborn babies and not letting people into a country, I’m not sure how I can engage in a debate with you

Dude, I’m talking about the irony of forcing one mom against her will to bring a baby into this country via her birth canal, and forcing another mom against her will to keep her baby out of this country via the border. All babies matter.

It’s funny to me.

 

[djacobox372]

You’re running off the assumption that all immigration is based off of people being chased out by cartoon villains. You’re basing your belief on a false narrative

and if you’d can’t understand the difference between killing unborn babies and not letting people into a country, I’m not sure how I can engage in a debate with you

There is no such thing as an "unborn baby." You're making that up. If you have to build strawmen to make you argument I'm not sure I can engage in a debate with you.

 

[ElKarlo]

Dude, I’m talking about the irony of forcing one mom against her will to bring a baby into this country via her birth canal, and forcing another mom against her will to keep her baby out of this country via the border. All babies matter.

It’s funny to me.

How is it forcing her? She chose to become pregnant. That is on her. Her not wanting to be pregnant is her issue and her responsibility which is taking away the life of a human. Don’t want to give birth? Well you probably should have done something about that then

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

There is no such thing as an "unborn baby." You're making that up.

 

[ElKarlo]

There is no such thing as an "unborn baby." You're making that up. If you have to build strawmen to make you argument I'm not sure I can engage in a debate with you.

I am not sure if you’re this weird or you are just trolling

 

[Sara]

So, not only are there multiple options, there are options for all budgets.

Give me the excuse why condoms aren't an easily affordable solution for everyone, and why it's somehow a struggle for people to use them to prevent pregnancy. This idea that abortions are necessary because we're just not there yet with birth control methods, is absurd. It comes down to personal responsibility.

I don’t know if anywhere in North America that doesn’t have a place to get free condoms (planned parenthood, etc)

 

[Papi Chulo]

I can't speak for other people on the left and vice versa. I grew up very poor in rough environments. I've seen firsthand what life is like for people raised in the system. And for people that are raised by parents that were pressured into keeping them. That either didn't have the resources to raise them, didn't know how to, or more often both.

Most people that have never gone to the government for assistance because they grew up middle class, don't know how flawed and backwards the system is. If you want to just pop out children without a care while not working, you can get welfare checks, food stamps, and housing subsidies.

If you don't have kids or try to provide for them but don't have the skills or education to do so, the government essentially tells you to go fuck yourself. No housing subsidy, no cash allowance, no food stamps. You will be told you make too much to qualify even on minimum wage. Government employment programs will help you find work, menial dead end low paying work. Which isn't hard to find outside of nationwide recessions.

I saw this firsthand being raised by a single mother. That was proud and hardworking but uneducated and only able to get low paying jobs. We had to turn to churches and food banks to eat. Even though she was supporting two people on a meager income we couldn't get any help with housing and had to live in slums. We got SOME free medical care but it was limited and subpar.

I watched peers end up dead, mentally ill drug addicts, in prison, low level scum grifting off welfare, human shells ruined by abuse from unreliable parents. By the time I was a teen I was essentially left to my own devices. The hardships wore her down and eventually broke her until she turned into an awful person I didn't recognize.

Poverty is awful. It crushes the weak, hopeful, and gullible and decays many from the inside out and turns them into monsters. When you force people that can't provide for themselves to add more mouths to feed, everyone doesn't rise to the occasion. In my experience most don't, and as a society we have no safety net to help them when they fall short.

I hope you're not saying the solution would be to have aborted you and your sibling? I don't think you are.

I believe in God whose son is Jesus Christ, and our only hope is in him to save us from our sins and to help us get through the hardships of life. Without him, I would not be here today either, and I didn't have it as hard as you and your mother