Economy Minimum-wage foes were wrong, forced to revise their understanding.

[spamking]

People want to make America great again, but don't want to return to a time when a person could survive on a minimum wage job. Why is that?

Not really an answer to anything I asked . . . but how has society changed to cause a person not be able to survive on the pay from a minimum wage job? You made fun of someone earlier for posting about frivolous spending. If you want to return to a time when a person could survive on a minimum wage I think "we" would really need to look at that. Not just those being paid a minimum wage, but all of us. I could probably sit down and look at my own budget and cut out several monthly expenses if I wanted to limit my spending on just what my family of four truly needed. That's something we would all benefit from if we're being honest.

 

[panamaican]

Quick question: how many of the contributors ITT have ever signed someone else’s paycheck while being the party responsible for ensuring that check is valid?

Me. But I haven't contributed to this thread yet.

 

[panamaican]

There are already plenty of who pay more for college and end up flipping burgers or something for less money. Whatever schooling you decide to pay for is a risk you take yourself. How much money you make is not set in stone unless it is the minimum of course. We dont set pay grades per job, we only set the minimum for any job.

I dont know why people bring up other people's salaries when talking about minimum wage. Its as if you people think its relevant to what the minimum should be. The minimum is the floor. An electrician, doctor, a banker cannot be paid less is what a minimum means . If they think they deserve more, well, its entirely up to them to try and get it however they can.

Actually people should be grateful there is minimum. Because in case you lose your current job you can now go find a minimum wage job, and you know just how high the pay is. Instead people try and find the negative when they should be looking at the positives. The guys making $30/hr now only making $15/hr more than the guy now making $15/hr is not as bad for the economy as people think. It only bruises people's egos.

Plus I dont think you need to go to school for trade. You can just work underneath someone, and then take the tests, and get licensed. But who cares? That has nothing to do with minimum wage should be.

I'm not a huge fan of minimum wage laws but I agree with a portion of your post. What the rest of the market makes should have no bearign on what a legit minimum wage should be.

People who argue against raising the minimum wage because it doesn't leave enough of a gap between minimum wage workers and someone else should recognize the maliciousness of that position. I will deny that person a higher wage because I want to be able to claim that my work is more important than theirs and, by extension, that I am more important than them.

The basic response is that if your work is that much more valuable then, regardless of the minimum wage, you can seek a pay increase that reflects that higher value. But since these people seem to recognize that their work might not be worth more money, they seek to maintain the economic caste system by preventing others from making more money. It's economic policy by spite, not reason.

And I'm generally against minimum wage laws but more because I think they have negative impacts on the least educated portions of society. It's easy for a large corporation to absorb the higher wages. Profit takes a small hit, less attractive benefit packages, pass some of it on to the customer, etc. But the small business owner is living on his profits and if he's paying more to the staff, he's making less. Raising his employees wage by $5k/year means reducing his income by $5k/year. Easy when he's clearing 6 figures but what about the guy/woman who's making $45k/year with a 1 employee business? That person experiences the minimum wage increase as a pay cut. And if there's more than 1 employee that's a bug hit.

In our economy, minimum wage laws really should be aimed at businesses by revenue or by staff sizes.

 

[HIMBOB]

Not really an answer to anything I asked . . . but how has society changed to cause a person not be able to survive on the pay from a minimum wage job? .

Inflation and a minimum wage that hasn't kept up.

 

[IGotAHugePeckah]

Seattle residents can afford to support a higher minimum wage for its service employees. I still don't like the idea of a minimum wage (the real minimum is always $0.00, we just add a discontinuity), but it should be a local ordinance if we're going to have one.

Exactly. But that's par for the course - they'll see something succeed (or at least not fuck up) in one location and just assume that means it will work ANYWHERE.

 

[spamking]

Inflation and a minimum wage that hasn't kept up.

Thank you . . . that's one of the many things that has impacted wages and our ability to support ourselves.

 

[HIMBOB]

Exactly. But that's par for the course - they'll see something succeed (or at least not fuck up) in one location and just assume that means it will work ANYWHERE.

Has more merit than not seeing it fail and assuming it wouldn't work.

 

[helltoupee]

Quick question: how many of the contributors ITT have ever signed someone else’s paycheck while being the party responsible for ensuring that check is valid?

I have, and still do. What's your question?

If you can't operate a small business and afford to pay your employees a living wage, then you don't deserve to be in business. Labor is simply a cost of doing business - attempting to squeeze out a higher bottom line for yourself by screwing your employees means you are doing something wrong.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Not really an answer to anything I asked . . . but how has society changed to cause a person not be able to survive on the pay from a minimum wage job? You made fun of someone earlier for posting about frivolous spending. If you want to return to a time when a person could survive on a minimum wage I think "we" would really need to look at that. Not just those being paid a minimum wage, but all of us. I could probably sit down and look at my own budget and cut out several monthly expenses if I wanted to limit my spending on just what my family of four truly needed. That's something we would all benefit from if we're being honest.

But this is shown to be false by math.

Stagnent wages, and inflation are verifiable facts.

You could pay rent, buy food, own a used car on MW in the 70's. Not to mention having full paid health care from your employer, and a pension.

 

[superpunch]

Not really an answer to anything I asked . . . but how has society changed to cause a person not be able to survive on the pay from a minimum wage job? You made fun of someone earlier for posting about frivolous spending. If you want to return to a time when a person could survive on a minimum wage I think "we" would really need to look at that. Not just those being paid a minimum wage, but all of us. I could probably sit down and look at my own budget and cut out several monthly expenses if I wanted to limit my spending on just what my family of four truly needed. That's something we would all benefit from if we're being honest.

If you cook all your own food, don't have internet, just have health insurance that covers regular doctors visits and no medications/ surgeries/ hospital/ etc., live in housing that would get demolished for not being up to code, drive a car that's just a box with wheels and an engine, wear used or handed down clothing, and share your phone with 10 other people -- you can still live on minimum wage.

When people say they can't live on minimum wage what they're really saying is: I can't support a family, have a small house, eat out every day, have health insurance that covers everything, pay for internet, have my own smart phone, wear new fashionable clothes, and drive a car with ABS/ air conditioning/ stereo/ auto transmission/ etc. on minimum wage. You could never do that on minimum wage.

 

[superpunch]

But this is shown to be false by math.

Stagnent wages, and inflation are verifiable facts.

You could pay rent, buy food, own a used car on MW in the 70's. Not to mention having full paid health care from your employer, and a pension.

What did health care cover back then? What was a car in the 1970s (you can still buy 1970s quality cars -- in third world countries for like $3000 new)? And how are those pensions coming along? What did people eat back then (cooking their own food vs eating out vs eating processed foods)? What about appliances and services that didn't exist (laptops, internet, smart phones)?

 

[VivaRevolution]

What did health care cover back then? What was a car in the 1970s (you can still buy 1970s quality cars -- in third world countries for like $3000 new)? And how are those pensions coming along? What did people eat back then (cooking their own food vs eating out vs eating processed foods)? What about appliances and services that didn't exist (laptops, internet, smart phones)?

At the time, they were top of the line. You could even buy a car with air conditioning. That today is like a rear view camera.

You could get the most advanced medical treatment of the time.

I really don't understand why your ilk insists on the idea that technology is wealth. It isn't.

 

[Final Rehab]

If this happens then all the burger flippers, shelve stockers, grass cutters etc will be out sourced to China.

Everyone knows this.

LOL I know what you're trying to say here but literally none of those jobs can be outsourced to China. So someone in China is going to flip my burger, cut my grass, or stock the shelves in my local market? I'd love to hear how they're going to pull that off.

If you just made a joke and I didn't get it my bad.

 

[esotamoc]

The most powerful nation in history should not have working poor. Fair enough to account for regional cost of living. If you work full time you should be able to pay basic essential bills and have something left over- otherwise what stake to you have in your society or nation. Minimum wage should be enforced for illegals with heavy penalties for non compliance.

 

[7437]

What did health care cover back then? What was a car in the 1970s (you can still buy 1970s quality cars -- in third world countries for like $3000 new)? And how are those pensions coming along? What did people eat back then (cooking their own food vs eating out vs eating processed foods)? What about appliances and services that didn't exist (laptops, internet, smart phones)?

you could buy a mustang for about 3k new.
https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/mustang-prices-through-the-years

 

[lilelvis]

I have, and still do. What's your question?

If you can't operate a small business and afford to pay your employees a living wage, then you don't deserve to be in business. Labor is simply a cost of doing business - attempting to squeeze out a higher bottom line for yourself by screwing your employees means you are doing something wrong.

Well, alrighty then.

 

[HIMBOB]

If you cook all your own food, don't have internet, just have health insurance that covers regular doctors visits and no medications/ surgeries/ hospital/ etc., live in housing that would get demolished for not being up to code, drive a car that's just a box with wheels and an engine, wear used or handed down clothing, and share your phone with 10 other people -- you can still live on minimum wage.

When people say they can't live on minimum wage what they're really saying is: I can't support a family, have a small house, eat out every day, have health insurance that covers everything, pay for internet, have my own smart phone, wear new fashionable clothes, and drive a car with ABS/ air conditioning/ stereo/ auto transmission/ etc. on minimum wage. You could never do that on minimum wage.

Technically possible in perfect conditions is not a reasonable test.

LOL I know what you're trying to say here but literally none of those jobs can be outsourced to China. So someone in China is going to flip my burger, cut my grass, or stock the shelves in my local market? I'd love to hear how they're going to pull that off.

If you just made a joke and I didn't get it my bad.

Your bad.

 

[spamking]

But this is shown to be false by math.

Stagnent wages, and inflation are verifiable facts.

You could pay rent, buy food, own a used car on MW in the 70's. Not to mention having full paid health care from your employer, and a pension.

When I say minimum wage I'm referring to a minimum wage reflective of what your actual job demands. Not some job at Burger King or waiting tables. Folks "way back when" weren't supporting families on that type of job.

So no, while your math might apply to those truly lower wage jobs that's not what I was referring to in my comment.

If you cook all your own food, don't have internet, just have health insurance that covers regular doctors visits and no medications/ surgeries/ hospital/ etc., live in housing that would get demolished for not being up to code, drive a car that's just a box with wheels and an engine, wear used or handed down clothing, and share your phone with 10 other people -- you can still live on minimum wage.

See my comment above . . . folks were able to survive on much less overall and without many of the amenities we seem to see as "must haves" and often on a single income.

When people say they can't live on minimum wage what they're really saying is: I can't support a family, have a small house, eat out every day, have health insurance that covers everything, pay for internet, have my own smart phone, wear new fashionable clothes, and drive a car with ABS/ air conditioning/ stereo/ auto transmission/ etc. on minimum wage. You could never do that on minimum wage.

As I commented earlier . . . those "flipping burgers" type of minimum wage jobs weren't necessarily intended for folks to keep long term and do the things you mentioned in most cases.

 

[deviake]

In a surprising twist, when more people have more money to spend it stimulates the economy vs a few people having all the money (who aren't putting much back into it).

When's the last time we figured this out... just after 1929, right?