Military Roll Call! Veterans, GTFIH!

[Stoic1]

I met this Navy JAG Officer in Kabul in 2011. I was in the Army, hence had nametapes on the back of my cover and he actually said my name correctly (which is mad rare, I usually got some form of the bird Canary).

I turned around, and see a Navy O-3. Dude goes 'was your dad Senior Drill Instructor at MCRD in 1991?" Apparently my dad was this guy's DI when he was a boot Marine, before switching over to Navy and going JAG.

I mean I remember all my Drill Sergeants in Army BCT, but i'm not going up to randos a full 20 years later to ask if they're related hahahah

A few weeks later, the same thing happened w/ some Civilian Contractor, apparently my dad his was Sgt Maj here at MCCES at 29 Palms when he was a SSgt stationed there.

It really is a small world, in many ways

Warrior Caste.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...litary-families-that-fight-americas-wars.html

https://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/c...ise-of-the-warrior-caste-and-the-all-voluntee

 

[Phr3121]

Warrior Caste.

Those were good articles. Unfortunately the 'warrior caste' is now dumb, weak, and less disciplined.

"Low Recruit Discipline Prompts Army to Redesign Basic Training"

Link: https://www.military.com/daily-news...ers-prompts-army-redesign-basic-training.html

"Dumb and Dumber -- The U.S. Army lowers recruitment standards … again"

Link: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/01/the-u-s-army-lowers-recruitment-standards-again.html

This 'breed' from WWII is gone forever...

 

[My Spot]

"Low Recruit Discipline Prompts Army to Redesign Basic Training"

Link: https://www.military.com/daily-news...ers-prompts-army-redesign-basic-training.html

I hope they don't go full retard with all the drill and ceremony though.

 

[Roaming East]

Those were good articles. Unfortunately the 'warrior caste' is now dumb, weak, and less disciplined.

"Low Recruit Discipline Prompts Army to Redesign Basic Training"

Link: https://www.military.com/daily-news...ers-prompts-army-redesign-basic-training.html

"Dumb and Dumber -- The U.S. Army lowers recruitment standards … again"

Link: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/01/the-u-s-army-lowers-recruitment-standards-again.html

This 'breed' from WWII is gone forever...

i think the average soldier in WW2 was probably just as lazy a shitkicker as they are now. Its just people only remember the extreme examples. Out of the entire 101st, you get folks that can recite the whole history of about 20 guys in a single company out of a single regiment from a whole division and act like that was the average.

 

[Mike Hagger]

i think the average soldier in WW2 was probably just as lazy a shitkicker as they are now. Its just people only remember the extreme examples. Out of the entire 101st, you get folks that can recite the whole history of about 20 guys in a single company out of a single regiment from a whole division and act like that was the average.

There’s is a shit ton of examples outside of just 1 company. And the 101st wasn’t supposed to be average soldiers either, they did have a selection.

I don’t know if today’s generation could collectively handle what those guys did. I say that as a guy who has deployed allot in GWOT. I think people have changed. My grampa fought in WW2, and having heard his stories they don’t sound like mine.

Sure there’s a lot of glorified parts and revision but there’s something to people being a little tougher back in the day.

 

[Phr3121]

Sure there’s a lot of glorified parts and revision but there’s something to people being a little tougher back in the day.

1st Lieutenant Ronald Speirs
Easy Company, 2nd Battalion, 506 Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division
German-occupied town of Foy, January, 1945.
1 tablespoon of 'bravery' and 1 tablespoon of 'crazy stupid':

 

[Roaming East]

There’s is a shit ton of examples outside of just 1 company. And the 101st wasn’t supposed to be average soldiers either, they did have a selection.

I don’t know if today’s generation could collectively handle what those guys did. I say that as a guy who has deployed allot in GWOT. I think people have changed. My grampa fought in WW2, and having heard his stories they don’t sound like mine.

Sure there’s a lot of glorified parts and revision but there’s something to people being a little tougher back in the day.

oddly enough, i've heard the opposite. They did a review of actual fighting and the record basically went,
'since the advent of helicopters allowing for the immediate placement of troops within a battle, the average amount of combat a soldier would as an 11B went up a ridiculous amount. an 11B in WW2 could expect to see roughly 10 days of solid combat in a given year. In Vietnam that number was 240. The ability to forego marching, to basically directly insert a soldier into battle, on a damn continuous basis was unheard of in WW2 for obvious reasons. The tempo of battle is such that it would be appalling to WW2 commander to imagine his line soldiers being expected to face near certain enemy contact virtually every day for almost a year.

 

[Phr3121]

'Since the advent of helicopters allowing for the immediate placement of troops within a battle, the average amount of combat a soldier would as an 11B went up a ridiculous amount. An 11B in WW2 could expect to see roughly 10 days of solid combat in a given year. In Vietnam that number was 240. The tempo of battle is such that it would be appalling to WW2 commander to imagine his line soldiers being expected to face near certain enemy contact virtually every day for almost a year.

Do you have a source to back that up?

The Siege of Bastogne alone (WWII) went from 20 to 27 December 1944. U.S. Marines fighting the Japanese in the Pacific Theater fared much worst. Factor in casualty rates and medical advances (or lack of), WWII soldiers and Marines had it much worst than their Vietnam counterpart.

240 days of solid (continuous) combat in Vietnam? For one U.S. soldier or U.S. Marine? No, that is impossible. Not even the VC was engaged in solid combat for that long. Imagine the casualty rate for both sides. That must be combined combat for the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines. All personnel, not one individual.

Around 50,000 Americans died in Vietnam and about 400,000 in World War II.

 

[Mike Hagger]

oddly enough, i've heard the opposite. They did a review of actual fighting and the record basically went,
'since the advent of helicopters allowing for the immediate placement of troops within a battle, the average amount of combat a soldier would as an 11B went up a ridiculous amount. an 11B in WW2 could expect to see roughly 10 days of solid combat in a given year. In Vietnam that number was 240. The ability to forego marching, to basically directly insert a soldier into battle, on a damn continuous basis was unheard of in WW2 for obvious reasons. The tempo of battle is such that it would be appalling to WW2 commander to imagine his line soldiers being expected to face near certain enemy contact virtually every day for almost a year.

You’re probably right however the intensity of battle between WW2 and GWOT isn’t the same.

 

[Mike Hagger]

Do you have a source to back that up?

The Siege of Bastogne alone (WWII) went from 20 to 27 December 1944. U.S. Marines fighting the Japanese in the Pacific Theater fared much worst. Factor in casualty rates and medical advances (or lack of), WWII soldiers and Marines had it much worst than their Vietnam counterpart.

240 days of solid (continuous) combat in Vietnam? For one U.S. soldier or U.S. Marine? No, that is impossible. Not even the VC was engaged in solid combat for that long. Imagine the casualty rate for both sides. That must be combined combat for the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines. All personnel, not one individual.

Around 50,000 Americans died in Vietnam and about 400,000 in World War II.

Continuous maybe considering even in the FOBs of many deployed infantry, those soldiers would be in contact even while in their base.
Reading a few accounts of 173rd they operated in patrol bases for months, what some of those units faced was crazy. However in those same books I read about guys who were high on patrol, carrying boom boxes and shit.

Like I said WW2 soldiers I believe were by default more focused than modern soldiers. Sometimes glorified but I’m saying generally.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Do you have a source to back that up?

The Siege of Bastogne alone (WWII) went from 20 to 27 December 1944. U.S. Marines fighting the Japanese in the Pacific Theater fared much worst. Factor in casualty rates and medical advances (or lack of), WWII soldiers and Marines had it much worst than their Vietnam counterpart.

240 days of solid (continuous) combat in Vietnam? For one U.S. soldier or U.S. Marine? No, that is impossible. Not even the VC was engaged in solid combat for that long. Imagine the casualty rate for both sides. That must be combined combat for the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines. All personnel, not one individual.

Around 50,000 Americans died in Vietnam and about 400,000 in World War II.

Dave Grossman's book On Killing highlights some of the points that @Roaming East is making. I don’t think it takes into account the “type” of men that fought in WWII or Vietnam but it brings to light the amount of time men from these wars spent in combat as well as the percentage of men who actually fired their weapon (Vietnam being way higher percentage than WWII). Good book.

I don’t think he meant continuous combat. Like going 240 without a break in contact. But take 365 days that you’re in Vietnam and 240 of those someone was actively shooting at you. That’s the way I read it.
My uncle was an RTO in Vietnam. He’s told me pretty much evertime they went on patrol someone was engaging them.

 

[Phr3121]

Dave Grossman's book On Killing highlights some of the points that @Roaming East is making. I don’t think it takes into account the “type” of men that fought in WWII or Vietnam but it brings to light the amount of time men from these wars spent in combat as well as the percentage of men who actually fired their weapon (Vietnam being way higher percentage than WWII).

I'm aware of the book you mentioned, "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society", by David Grossman and "Men against Fire" by Brigadier General Samuel Lyman Atwood Marshall. I think this is all a 'myth' and pure crap. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there is no evidence to support the claim.

If you are interested, Robert Engen wrote a very incisive article on the subject in the Canadian Military Journal, and wrote his Masters thesis on the subject. Engen found (and has the evidence to prove) that - for Canadians, at the very least - did not have this problem. Based on primary sources (written post-combat interviews with Canadian officers), he found exactly the opposite of what Marshall and Grossman claim.

Link: http://qspace.library.queensu.ca/bitstream/1974/1081/1/Engen_Robert_C_200803_MA.pdf

It is not rocket science. If you and your buddies don't fire back at the enemy firing at you, you and your buddies get killed. Think of the Battle of Gettysburg during the Civil War, would the Union have won had they not fired back at the Confederates?

Not only were American soldiers (and Marines) firing their weapons during World War II and Vietnam, in Vietnam American soldiers were killing 2nd Lieutenants (Platoon Leader) in the field - fragging. In some cases we have evidence and in others cases we cannot prove it. "Well, the LT was in my field of fire!" Other U.S. soldiers would use an AK-47 for just that purpose.

• On 21 April 1969, a grenade was thrown into the company office of K Company, 9th Marines, at Quang Tri Combat Base; 1st Lieutenant Robert Rohweller died of wounds he received in the explosion. Private Reginald Smith pleaded guilty to the premeditated murder of Rohweller and was sentenced to 40 years' imprisonment.

• On 15 March 1971, a grenade tossed into an officer billet at Bien Hoa Army Airfield killed Lieutenants Thomas Dellwo and Richard Harlan of the 1st Cavalry Division. Private Billy Smith was charged with killing the officers but was acquitted.

 

[Cyrano200]

I met this Navy JAG Officer in Kabul in 2011. I was in the Army, hence had nametapes on the back of my cover and he actually said my name correctly (which is mad rare, I usually got some form of the bird Canary).

I turned around, and see a Navy O-3. Dude goes 'was your dad Senior Drill Instructor at MCRD in 1991?" Apparently my dad was this guy's DI when he was a boot Marine, before switching over to Navy and going JAG.

I mean I remember all my Drill Sergeants in Army BCT, but i'm not going up to randos a full 20 years later to ask if they're related hahahah

A few weeks later, the same thing happened w/ some Civilian Contractor, apparently my dad his was Sgt Maj here at MCCES at 29 Palms when he was a SSgt stationed there.

It really is a small world, in many ways

Retired U.S. Navy submariner.
I attended Nuclear Prototype training in 1988. Last year I had the son of one my instructors in class here at NNSY. He had an unusual last name that prompted me to ask, those darn nametapes give everything away.

 

[My Spot]

Retired U.S. Navy submariner.
I attended Nuclear Prototype training in 1988. Last year I had the son of one my instructors in class here at NNSY. He had an unusual last name that prompted me to ask, those darn nametapes give everything away.

Ever spend any time at Kings Bay?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I'm aware of the book you mentioned, "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society", by David Grossman and "Men against Fire" by Brigadier General Samuel Lyman Atwood Marshall. I think this is all a 'myth' and pure crap. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there is no evidence to support the claim.

If you are interested, Robert Engen wrote a very incisive article on the subject in the Canadian Military Journal, and wrote his Masters thesis on the subject. Engen found (and has the evidence to prove) that - for Canadians, at the very least - did not have this problem. Based on primary sources (written post-combat interviews with Canadian officers), he found exactly the opposite of what Marshall and Grossman claim.

Link: http://qspace.library.queensu.ca/bitstream/1974/1081/1/Engen_Robert_C_200803_MA.pdf

It is not rocket science. If you and your buddies don't fire back at the enemy firing at you, you and your buddies get killed. Think of the Battle of Gettysburg during the Civil War, would the Union have won had they not fired back at the Confederates?

Not only were American soldiers (and Marines) firing their weapons during World War II and Vietnam, in Vietnam American soldiers were killing 2nd Lieutenants (Platoon Leader) in the field - fragging. In some cases we have evidence and in others cases we cannot prove it. "Well, the LT was in my field of fire!" Other U.S. soldiers would use an AK-47 for just that purpose.

• On 21 April 1969, a grenade was thrown into the company office of K Company, 9th Marines, at Quang Tri Combat Base; 1st Lieutenant Robert Rohweller died of wounds he received in the explosion. Private Reginald Smith pleaded guilty to the premeditated murder of Rohweller and was sentenced to 40 years' imprisonment.

• On 15 March 1971, a grenade tossed into an officer billet at Bien Hoa Army Airfield killed Lieutenants Thomas Dellwo and Richard Harlan of the 1st Cavalry Division. Private Billy Smith was charged with killing the officers but was acquitted.

A myth?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Ever spend any time at Kings Bay?

Yes

 

[Cyrano200]

Ever spend any time at Kings Bay?

Never stationed there, I was on fast boats. But a few weeks here and there as part of tiger teams for repair work on the bigger boats both as a sailor and civilian. Nice town when the paper mill wasn't upwind.

 

[Strychnine]

Never stationed there, I was on fast boats. But a few weeks here and there as part of tiger teams for repair work on the bigger boats both as a sailor and civilian. Nice town when the paper mill wasn't upwind.

Try living near the Chicken Poultry about 50 miles West...

That's yet another reason I didn't join the Army, I could've wound up in Hinesville. Too darn close to home!

 

[heavyarms21]

Checking in Nov 3rd. Pretty much situated now in town, jist waiting for movers to bring my bed and the rest of my stuff gives me time to in pack what I drove over in my vehicle and what I initially left here before I drove up to Virginia. Got Roughly 2 weeks to get any last minute uniform alterations and also the last time I get to do my own PT sessions as well as meal prep and load up on extra items and recovery gear.

 

[vcmmafan]

Delta Force killed Abu Bakr

Neat