How thorough is modern U.S. Military Combative training really? I have heard that even Marines spend only about a month on hand to hand combat and yet there is a mystique surrounding Marines. Why is this and exactly how much hand to hand combat do they really train?
Combatives training is simply not a priority for military personnel, even in the elite teams, because there is a limited amount of training time and a lot of skillsets to learn. Combatives training mostly has a purpose in creating esprit de corps, a warrior spirit and if you're a door-kicker, subduing unarmed civilians. As a weapons system, it's not very effective. Imagine a Navy SEAL or Army Ranger that has to resort to hand-to-hand combat. That's almost unimaginable because they'd have to fuck up pretty badly to get to that point. Most of the techniques are pretty good, borrowing from styles like BJJ, boxing, Muay Thai, etc. that make up modern MMA. It's the lack of practice to be proficient in really using the techniques that make combatives a joke. For your everyday Marine grunt, learning battlefield first aid, land nav, marksmanship, etc. all have a lot more practicality than combatives.
I think in modern times it's used more for cultivating a fighting-instinct and aggression than actual usage in the battlefield. Hand to hand is rare in modern combat. In my country and during my service, hand to hand combat training was pretty much non-existent except for a few hours of bayonet drills during basic. I'm Korean and everybody thinks all ROK soldiers are TKD badasses but to get a "blackbelt" in the ROK army, all you gotta do is memorize a few forms and test. They don't even teach you the forms, they just give you a print out to study and an option to test if you're interested (what's ironic and worrisome is that this was how some weapons training was done as well). During my service, there was only one TKD belt test. So that's how thorough hand to hand training was for me.
Military hand to hand combat training is extremely basic. Its not really a priority. The reputation comes from them being tough, and generally in better shape than most people. Thats enough to win the vast majority of fights.
I had about 3-4 hours of hand to hand combat training in basic training for the u.s. army about 15 years ago...
In Ireland the army has a massive culture of amateur boxing, some of em are almost full time boxers, part time soldiers. But most of the training from what i've talked with people is basic krav maga and weapons training.
This is TWO threads about the same thing now. Let me guess, you're arguing with some dumbass in a TMA forum or some dumbass in a Krav Maga or self defense forum who gets a boner thinking about Marines right? Those self defense numbnuts never fight, not even spar hard with KO power. All they have to gauge real combat by is by watching movies, hearing stories told by Marines at bars while their eyes are gleaming with interest like a fat chick hoping to get lucky that night and other dumbshit experiences like getting tapped in the throat while training SD and thinking it's the end to all, nuclear weapon of fighting techs because it hurts so much. Marines and other soldiers who aren't trained, other than from their Service, will usually not disclose that they're soldiers when they come into fighting gyms; mostly because they know people may target them (to say that they kicked a Marine's ass) or that they'd have to maintain some higher standards, mostly due to such BS mystique about them being perpetuated by these male cheerleaders, but also by themselves too. Some dumbass on Martial Talk or whatever was telling me about how awesome Marines were, trained to kill with their bare hands and not like BS MMA, which is only sports fighting. I showed them 3 videos of Marine's MCMAP brown belts sparring on YouTube which looked like sloppy kickboxing....and they banned me.
Getting into arguments with TMA/Krav fanatics is usually a bad idea, they treat that shit like religion
unarmed fighting was often viewed as largely useless in battle even in ancient times. I remember coming across a document from a chinese general who noted empty handed fighting generally wasnt needed on the battlefield back then either. From what ive heard most of the the communist blocks armies took their empty handed training more seriously than other countries though
Case in point. I had a friend ask me if I thought MMA was real fighting. I said it is as close as it gets. They laughed and talked about Marines as an example of as real as it gets. I asked what they trained to do that made them able to beat an average joe who trains in MMA each week. They had no answer but simply mocked. I saw at that point that this really is a religion or some type of pride issue. There is a blindness there. However, I am asking for my own benefit to learn what they do in fact do so I am not speaking out of ignorance.
They are indeed very similar. If that is not allowed, please overlook it as I am new to the forum. The other thread is more asking what specific TMA's are used. I was hoping to find out how thorough training is in this one. Yes, there is indeed a similarity but they are not identical. I'll perhaps should have asked both questions in one thread. Thanks for pointing this out.
Marines (and presumably other branches) can choose to advance their training. They have to get a tan belt, and then some choose to continue their training. It's basically the same as their golden gloves, you're not required to do that obviously. A black belt in MCMAP is going to be a competent martial artist.
How extensive did the Soviet Union have their troops train sambo then? Also it has been mentioned, that time is of the essence, and their is no time for a soldier to train. But let me mention this. We are not in a state of perpetual, conventional, total warfare, in which we need all the troops out on the front lines and always at the ready to engage the enemy. The war of terror has been pretty low intensity correct? For how long are our foot soldiers out on combat patrols? How much time do they have in between? How much time do they spend back home at the bases in between tours? What are they doing for most of the day when they are back stateside? You don't have to spend hours a day training H2H, but maybe an hour for three days out of the week is not too bad I would think. H2H hand may not be useful in killing the enemy, but it is a good way to relieve stress, will keep you in shape. And I imagine in a conflict like our war on terror, we are doing a lot of police work, and that means restraining people, taking them down, pinning them, and putting on cuffs. Actually I am now curious as to how much the police train H2H. I am going to start another thread for that. Also, what about cadets at the service academy? I cannot imagine them not being able to fit in some H2H classes into their curriculum. How much do the cadets get?
So if I am understanding this thread so far, a U.S. Marine has only about 28.5 hours required to get in and then from there it is up to them if they train anymore in hand to hand combat? If this is true, surely someone could see that this doesn't justify the mystique surrounding them, if that mystique includes ability to destroy an average MMA joe that trains for years in all aspects of hand to hand combat (unarmed). Am I missing something? If your a U.S. Marine and know different please say so. I'm asking to learn. Thanks.
