Mendes Bros. Opinion of Deep Half Guard

[trustdoesntrust]

I was watching this video from the Mendes Bros. and came to this spot 37 minutes in when they sternly warn you not to go into deep half after using the RDLR to kick the opponent back (even though it seems like a perfect DH entry). What I can't understand is if they are condemning deep half as an option in any situation, or if they're just dissing it here instead of the berimbolo. Can somebody clarify? The long explanation they give afterward about distance management is a little unclear.

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[Spiderguard Man]

those jabronies have noidea what they are talking about...

 

[invertcheguard]

mendes bros hate the deep half because there entire game is based around "Controlling the distance" which you cant do with deep half. even their waiter sweep and anything similar looking to deep half have a foot or limb controlling the distance. they talk about this on tons of videos on their website. you can also check one of the latest this in week in bjj vids where jake asks him what they thought about bernardo farias game vs rodolfo. first thing they say is no distance control. explanation in their video was pretty clear with the "hips line"

this would be a perfect example of what rafa is talking about, and anytime rafa feels he gets too close he posts on elbow and moves away. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-14lVlU-Ks

 

[Drew Foster]

So they try to stress using guard where you can use at least one limb to keep space between you and the opponent. So for Delariva and Reverse Delariva, you have a hook to pull, and a free leg to push. This allowss you to pull the opponent if they're too far, or push if they're too close. Same thing with X guard, etc. They're fine with the waiter style half guard, as long as your free knee/shin is in there to create some space.

They're smaller, so they don't like the idea of being in half guard where it's easier to have bigger people smash you, put their weight on you, etc. They try to not let anyone past the line of their hips, and if they do end up in half guard, they try to fight back to reverse Delariva, Delariva, or another guard where the opponent isn't right on top of them. Even during moves like the berimbolo, the opponent's weight is off of them before they invert, which keeps them from getting smashed.

It's a good idea, it's helped me, and even though I still play deep half from time to time, I definitely play it less and differently than I used to.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think he's saying overall don't use deep half, because it doesn't give you any control of the distance. The Mendes bros are fanatical about controlling the distance in guard, so I'm not shocked that they don't like deep half since you can get smashed from there in a way that you won't from DLR (the top guy has to break your DLR down to smash you which gives you more time to react and re-establish distance). While that is true, there are other theories of guard play than controlling distance. Marcelo, for example, basically makes his whole guard game about getting under people (X, butterfly, and 1-X all operate on this principle). Deep half is another guard that lets you get under people and screw with their balance, and it's used fairly regularly at the highest levels with success though admittedly mostly by heavier guys. I think it largely comes down to preference and what your guard playing philosophy is. Atos in general seems to disdain deep half, whereas Alliance guys like to play it. Is normal.

 

[Leify]

The Mendes brothers are small and don't like people's weight to be on them.

Deep half is great against people roughly your size or smaller, and while it still works against people much bigger than you, they have a lot of ability to shut the deep half down. You can look at the heavier weight classes and see it used effectively by a guy like Bernardo Faria, who would have won worlds this year if not for Rodolfo.

 

[mattemate]

Good question and thread. Nice insight, guys.

 

[dokomoy]

I think he's saying overall don't use deep half, because it doesn't give you any control of the distance. The Mendes bros are fanatical about controlling the distance in guard, so I'm not shocked that they don't like deep half since you can get smashed from there in a way that you won't from DLR (the top guy has to break your DLR down to smash you which gives you more time to react and re-establish distance). While that is true, there are other theories of guard play than controlling distance. Marcelo, for example, basically makes his whole guard game about getting under people (X, butterfly, and 1-X all operate on this principle). Deep half is another guard that lets you get under people and screw with their balance, and it's used fairly regularly at the highest levels with success though admittedly mostly by heavier guys. I think it largely comes down to preference and what your guard playing philosophy is. Atos in general seems to disdain deep half, whereas Alliance guys like to play it. Is normal.

Marcelo's game may involve getting underneath but it still controls the distance and prevents getting smashed much better than playing deep half does, I don't think there's much tension between his philosophy of getting underneath and the Mendes Bro's philosophy of controlling the distance(in fact Mendes Bro's teach x-guard and butterfly). It's very difficult to smash someone playing Marcelo's game(you can't effectively smash someone in x/1-leg x and if you want to put pressure on someone in butterfly you need to win the hand fight AND force them to there back before you can smash them), contrast that to deep half where as soon as you enter the position your opponent has the opportunity to cross-face you and apply a lot of pressure.

FWIW I don't think you can really say ATOS is anti deep half while Alliance is pro deep half. Andre Galvao uses deep half quite a bit and while Cobrinha used to teach deep half(I think it's on his DVD set he did with Budo Video's) he doesn't teach it anymore(actually most of the big name Alliance guys don't really play deep half I can't recall Langhi or Malfacine ever playing deep half and I haven't seen Lucas Lepri use it in years).

 

[dokomoy]

The Mendes brothers are small and don't like people's weight to be on them.

Deep half is great against people roughly your size or smaller, and while it still works against people much bigger than you, they have a lot of ability to shut the deep half down. You can look at the heavier weight classes and see it used effectively by a guy like Bernardo Faria, who would have won worlds this year if not for Rodolfo.

I think it's worth pointing out that even though guys like Bernardo(and Leo Nougeira and Cyborg) have had a good amount of success with deep half it doesn't really disprove the theory that the Mendes brother's articulated in the OP. It's pretty common to see those guys get smashed pretty good even in matches they go on to win, so even though they're able to overcome that and eventually get into the positions they want it's still some evidence that playing deep half will get you into trouble in ways that playing Spider/DLR/X/Whatever won't.

 

[TangoMF]

Cobrinha passed Rafa's guard when Rafa went to deep half in their first encounter in 2008, only time Rafa's guard has been passed at black belt (not sure about other belts). May have had something to do with the Mendes brothers abandoning the position.

 

[Shemhazai]

Deep half guard is a half guard like any other. It can be in your favor or it can be in the opponent's favor, depending on what grips/controls/angles you both are able to get.

'Controlling the distance' is one part of it, and you can achieve that with the waiter sweep or butterfly hooks, but let's be clear about what the purpose of controlling the distance really is: To prevent the guy from laying his weight – unobstructed – on your torso. Which again is a means to another end: Preventing him from stifling your mobility.

While controlling the distance as the Mendes bros. advocate (keeping your feet or knees between you and your opponent) is a good safeguard for this purpose, it is not the only way of keeping him from either putting his weight on you or otherwise stifling your movement. It's just the most generally sound rule of thumb. You could say that it's more about creating sound frames and structures with your body, while the distance per se that they manage doesn't have to be very great.

 

[brendan raedy]

The Mendes brothers are small and don't like people's weight to be on them.

Deep half is great against people roughly your size or smaller, and while it still works against people much bigger than you, they have a lot of ability to shut the deep half down. You can look at the heavier weight classes and see it used effectively by a guy like Bernardo Faria, who would have won worlds this year if not for Rodolfo.

That makes sense, but have the Mendes bros ever competed in the open class?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Marcelo's game may involve getting underneath but it still controls the distance and prevents getting smashed much better than playing deep half does, I don't think there's much tension between his philosophy of getting underneath and the Mendes Bro's philosophy of controlling the distance(in fact Mendes Bro's teach x-guard and butterfly). It's very difficult to smash someone playing Marcelo's game(you can't effectively smash someone in x/1-leg x and if you want to put pressure on someone in butterfly you need to win the hand fight AND force them to there back before you can smash them), contrast that to deep half where as soon as you enter the position your opponent has the opportunity to cross-face you and apply a lot of pressure.

FWIW I don't think you can really say ATOS is anti deep half while Alliance is pro deep half. Andre Galvao uses deep half quite a bit and while Cobrinha used to teach deep half(I think it's on his DVD set he did with Budo Video's) he doesn't teach it anymore(actually most of the big name Alliance guys don't really play deep half I can't recall Langhi or Malfacine ever playing deep half and I haven't seen Lucas Lepri use it in years).

I disagree that your opponent has the chance to cross face you as you enter. If you can establish deep half, your head should be far enough underneath your opponent's hips that they can't get a good cross face started. In addition, you can control distance just fine with deep half using leg levers which many tournament deep half players do. I've seen Marcelo enter deep half, Faria uses it all the time, Lepri has used it a lot, that's where I was getting the Alliance using it part from (and while Galvao will play it some, but I think he's better known for killing it and the rest of Atos doesn't really use it much that I've seen.

Deep half definitely has vulnerabilities like all guards, but I don't think it's easier to smash someone in deep half than in any other half guard.

 

[rmongler]

if deep half is good enough to sweep royler gracie, its good enough for someone else too.

 

[randomg1t]

their principles of always keeping the distance with legs and forearms have made me much, much better. if you're a smaller guy you have to give this a try, it will elevate your game immensely.

i'm not particularly fond of the berimbolo, but there's so much other stuff that they explain in their videos.

 

[Chute Stomp]

I gather, as we saw in the Cobrinha video, that Rafa as least used it successfully up to brown belt. Bruno Frazatto, who the Mendes bros trained with a lot coming up was big on deep half; I'm sure he had some influence. Funnily enough one of the few times I've seen Rafa swept was from DHG against Ryan Hall, if I remember correctly.

 

[Leify]

That makes sense, but have the Mendes bros ever competed in the open class?

At black belt? The only time I can really recall was at world pro no gi once.

 

[MikeOmo]

I think I remember reading that Marcelo was very good at deep half at brown belt but ditched it for the reason of distance control as well. Anyone know what article or video I am thinking of?

 

[blackers10]

Is there any links or YouTube clips explaining the mendes shins and forearms concepts to keeping space etc?

 

[bufula]

this thread has me questioning my whole existence... been playing a deep half based game for the past 2 years, i don't know what to believe anymore