McGregor era fan - Learn me on Pele and Shogun GnP

[Fungoose]

Pele brought attention to Muay Thai in Brazil. He was cocky, athletic, and usually hyper aggressive. Countless Vale Tudo fights, with no rules and little regard for weight. He was a bad motherfucker, through and through.

 

[gono btw]

Late modern era fan here with a twin focus educational thread:

I began watching MMA fulltime in mid 2014, but instantly began looking back to early events in an effort to better understand the sport. But two questions bugging me:

What was the real status / significance of Pele and why has there been no one with ground and pound violence equal to Shogun?

By the time MMA hit the mainstream, Pele appeared to be well past relevance, yet it seemed that he was still revered for early day achievements. Rose tinted glasses, or praise well deserved?

And Shogun - more of a technical question - what is it that made his striking attacks through the guard so violent and effective, and why does it seem like no one since has replicated this?

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/throwback-vale-tudo-fight.3812249/

We discussed Pelé´s skillset in this thread.

 

[gono btw]

Oh man, I can't at all stress how terrifying I thought Kerr was. Where was his ceiling? Imagine a focused Kerr without the distractions and negativity around him. Potential GOAT?

Ortiz, Coleman, Fedor, maximum respect for both, same for many others from that era. Frank Shamrock deserves recognition, as does Dan Severn and more. Randy's top pressure and control, Randlemans power.

Not trying to discredit the true GnP specialists, not all. Just the comment about Shogun is about his finish ability and inability to think of anyone as savage in that regard.

Kerr,along with Coleman, was the most feared competitor in the NHB era.

GNP Evolution [Kerr/Coleman]... In a specific environment [NHB/Vale Tudo/With Time Limit/Headbutts Allowed], proved to be lethal. Kerr´s mauling of Gurgel changed the paradigm in the BJJ Community, where people used to believe that technique was enough to overcome the size difference...

 

[gono btw]

Late modern era fan here with a twin focus educational thread:

I began watching MMA fulltime in mid 2014, but instantly began looking back to early events in an effort to better understand the sport. But two questions bugging me:

What was the real status / significance of Pele and why has there been no one with ground and pound violence equal to Shogun?

By the time MMA hit the mainstream, Pele appeared to be well past relevance, yet it seemed that he was still revered for early day achievements. Rose tinted glasses, or praise well deserved?

And Shogun - more of a technical question - what is it that made his striking attacks through the guard so violent and effective, and why does it seem like no one since has replicated this?

about Shogun: whether he was on top or off his back, his ground game was always dynamic, would never stand still, would always try to move and open the game.People forgot but his background is:



Sure, his GNP was spectacular thanks to Pride´s fight configuration & ruleset. But I think you should definitely have a look at his groundgame, pretty underrated... for sure the best @ Chuteboxe, along with Assuerio Silva´s...

Bonus: if someone keeps trolling in your thread, send this dude:

 

[legatoblues]

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/throwback-vale-tudo-fight.3812249/

We discussed Pelé´s skillset in this thread.

Cheers for that thread link, exactly what I was looking for. Much appreciated.

I had a great time following the evolution of the sport. I was certain Coleman would reign supreme and gave Maurice no chance whatsoever....was very happy to be amazed and proven wrong.

Kerr comes along and I'm in awe. Supercharged Coleman with none of the weaknesses....or so it seemed. Genuinely thought he was unbeatable, had questions after Igor 1, was worried after the Enson fight, couldn't believe the Fujita scrap.....then watched The Smashing Machine. Ohhboy ....where to start? But that's probably another thread..

Definitely have some Pele watching after this, thanks all contributors. Shogun GnP....perfect storm of youth, power and pure violence?

 

[FKA]

PELE was a guy who came up in the era of fights without time limits and no rules vale tudo.The guy trained at CHUTE BOX when getting knocked out 2-3 times a day meant you were getting good training in lol.He was a legit tough guy with devastating striking and a competent groundgame and a just kill attitude.Besides the documented mma fights he has NHB and vale tudofights.

He started his career going 7-0 all by finish and after his first 2 losses he again went 6-0 all by finish.He then alternated wins and losses against solid competition still kill or be killed attitude the dude never fought for points.

Best wins include Cyborg Santos,Pat Miletich,Matt Hughes,and Alexander storm shlemenko ×2.

But faced guys like Dave Menne,Chuck Liddell,Daijiro Matsui,Carlos Newton,Lee Murray,Babalu Sobral,Travis Lutter,Thales Leites.

Pele had all the tools to hang with the top guys of the time he just never seemed to game plan other then I'm looking to inflict massive trauma to my opponent lol.Had he had a guy like Andre pedenieres to help implement a good game plan I think he coulda had a better record overall but he is a great of the sport and deserves RESPECT and or HESPECT.

 

[FKA]

Shogun had excellent ground ability he had a great knowledge of positioning to stay in a place where he could land meaningful blows. Soccer kicks, knees to grounded opponents,stomps made him a feared opponent.Imagine if prime shogun had elbows at his disposal.....

We have seen many different styles of gnp but rulesets and the training if today make it harder to finish like that anymore.

 

[christer]

As for Shogun GnP, the difference I've noted and am commenting on is specifically his quick finishing abilty.

I have an immense level of respect for Tito Ortiz as a GnP beast. When I first saw Mark Coleman I thought he would reign undefeated for years. When I then saw Mark Kerr, I was at a loss to understand how such a specimen could ever be defeated.

That style of GnP still seems very different to the Shogun guard breaking KO power he seemed to have. For relevance, I today watched Pride 33 for the first time. I know of the GnP ability of others of the time amd others since. But Fedor, Randleman, Gomi, GSP, Cain, Randy etc have never made me go "holy shit" like Shogun just did.

Edit: and as for the Pele comments - what I'm really looking for is thoughts from those that may have been there. Totally aware that things were different then compared to now. I don't look at the record overall, but more the comments from those at the time, words from Quadros and others about Pele as a competitor and a coach(?), I want to know where that came from because I appreciate and respect that times were different and would prefer to accept the thoughts of those who know, rather than judging purely on numbers.

I think Shoguns finishing ability with GNP in pride came in part from the rules. He was able to be very dynamic in his approach to hitting downed opponents, and the flow of strikes was never interrupted due to rule changes (downed/not downed, kick not kick? etc). One part also is that he was a very special fighter back then. I guess he still is in a way, he still has very good power. He was so quick and would jump/stomp/kick and dive down with punches, hammerfists. His style of GNP in Pride would not be the same without kicks and stomps to the head of downed opponents I think. He did knock out people with hammerfists also I am aware, but yeah the overall flow of young Shoguns style combined with his power and speed.
This is just how I remember it, I watched it as it happened many years ago. Of course I've rewatched fights but to be honest it was quite a few years since I last saw his old pride fights. Your take on it is probably as good as mine/better.

Fedors gnp was special also, in the UFC I'd recommend watching the gnp of Mark Munoz. Also some of Jon Jones gnp is vicious, but not his go to "thing". Noone like "Young Shogun" but a few examples of other fighters with great gnp.

Regarding Pele I kind of had the same experience as you, since he was not that impressive compared to other top fighters even in 2003-2004 when I started watching.
I did see some of his good performances but maybe they are not available online anymore. He was violent and exciting, and well rounded for his time.
He was always very respected and I think there are some stories about his crazy fights, how they trained back then and such. Honestly I would recommend you google a bit or search for really old Sherdog threads.

Sorry that I was kind of an asshole in my first response. There's so many threads created with "Stupid statement - convince me otherwise" or stuff where you are supposed to just spoon feed opinions and information. Not what you were after - my bad.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

conor is boxing

 

[MCS]

Pele was a main dude at CB along with Wand in their early days, Assuerio, Rua bros and Spider came later. Has (or had) a beef with Anderson, who wanted to kill him. Rudimar and Cordeiro (a LW) could only do so much for sparring. Pele helped with that, was important in the beginning. He was good in his day, but there are mixed opinions about legendary status. He's got a lot of losses.

Shogun GnP's through the middle with hammerfists to finish, tries to punch through the guard. Not a typical style and his natural KO power translates to GnP. IDK why it's not used more. One reason could be that very few good grapplers are also top strikers with KO power.

 

[dmwalking]

Late modern era fan here with a twin focus educational thread:

I began watching MMA fulltime in mid 2014, but instantly began looking back to early events in an effort to better understand the sport. But two questions bugging me:

What was the real status / significance of Pele and why has there been no one with ground and pound violence equal to Shogun?

By the time MMA hit the mainstream, Pele appeared to be well past relevance, yet it seemed that he was still revered for early day achievements. Rose tinted glasses, or praise well deserved?

And Shogun - more of a technical question - what is it that made his striking attacks through the guard so violent and effective, and why does it seem like no one since has replicated this?

Pele was revered for the same reason Royce is revered. He was a pioneer of the old days and put on some very exciting fights during a time where many fighters were content to dry hump their opponents. Pele and the Chute Boxe dudes brought lovely lovely violence to MMA in an exciting and visually pleasing way. Thai knees and soccer kicks are simply more exciting than short head butts and rabbit punches.

Shogun was vicious because he had the option to stomp and soccer kick.

 

[Bogeyman]

Pele is a footballer you noob.

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Rules and format were different
Shogun of pride couldn't do gnp of pride in ufc

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Pele is a footballer you noob.

I know you're being sarcastic but
Jose pele

 

[Buffmeister]

Late modern era fan here with a twin focus educational thread:

I began watching MMA fulltime in mid 2014, but instantly began looking back to early events in an effort to better understand the sport. But two questions bugging me:

What was the real status / significance of Pele and why has there been no one with ground and pound violence equal to Shogun?

By the time MMA hit the mainstream, Pele appeared to be well past relevance, yet it seemed that he was still revered for early day achievements. Rose tinted glasses, or praise well deserved?

And Shogun - more of a technical question - what is it that made his striking attacks through the guard so violent and effective, and why does it seem like no one since has replicated this?

I think the thread that @gono btw hooked you up with should be pretty helpfull...

Jut my 2 cents on Pele:
He was violent, showed no mercy, no fear,had some showmanship...and was fucking arrogant inside the ring/cage...and with that i mean very very confident.
I mean he was a total bad ass dude...!

Ninja Rua (Shoguns older brother) was his student at Chute Boxe...

And he had some beef with Anderson Silva at some point, when he was UFC Champ...
At one point Anderson claimed that his daughter (Anderson's) was walking near a street...and Pele drove by in a car and accidently drove thru a pile of muddy water and it splashed all over his little girl...

Pele put out a video, denying it and challenged Anderson for a fight and made fun of him and said he was a coward...the whole statement here:




Oh and before i forgot!!!!!
Jessica Andrade had an q&a here on sherdog, when she was about to face Joanna...
I asked her about Pele and what she thinks about him and if he is actually known in Brazil...or a forgotten warrior?
She replied:
Not very known in Brazil but in Curitiba he is an absolute legend!




Also this right here:
Before Anderson...it happened to him

 

[superpunch]

Late modern era fan here with a twin focus educational thread:

I began watching MMA fulltime in mid 2014, but instantly began looking back to early events in an effort to better understand the sport. But two questions bugging me:

What was the real status / significance of Pele and why has there been no one with ground and pound violence equal to Shogun?

By the time MMA hit the mainstream, Pele appeared to be well past relevance, yet it seemed that he was still revered for early day achievements. Rose tinted glasses, or praise well deserved?

And Shogun - more of a technical question - what is it that made his striking attacks through the guard so violent and effective, and why does it seem like no one since has replicated this?

Brock and Jones GNP outdo Shogun by a hundred fold.

Shogun's GNP was good because he had chemically infinite cardio and could just spam 110% power haymaker hammerfists for the entire fight.

 

[superpunch]

Also another thing besides drug testing to keep in mind on understanding older fighters is also the difference in fighting skills.

Back in 2005, mount was an instant death sentence. You would 99% be finished right there. It was basically a submission. Shogun would get mount or top positoin and just brutalize guys in 2005.

That does not work in 2018.

The ground game has evolved and I can't even remember the last time someone finished or even hurt someone from the mount. It just doesn't happen. Shogun had a great GNP skillset for 2005 but it doesn't (obviously) work in 2018.

 

[mmacasualviewer]

Shogun doesn't have magic tap dancing GnP. He just happened to be a relatively lanky LHW-only-fighter of his time.

Like Jimmy Smith said. Tito is a LHW size of all eras. JS: "Shamrock is like my size".

 

[superpunch]

I am watching, but what I have to watch is what's easily available. Ie Fightpass. I'm asking about Pele because I went back to the start and noticed that was a name that was held in extremely high regard. Unfortunately, he doesn't have such a good run in this context, but I'm not at all interested in dismissing his talent just based on UFC / Zuffa reliance. Well aware that there was a hell of a lot more going on, especially pre 2000's.

And the Shogun question is more of a technical one, I guess. How is it that only one person can be so devastating against an opponent through the full guard? Arona, Overeem... is there a greater display of pure violence from such a position that I've missed along the way? Why don't we see that form of effective ground striking today? Has the defensive game improved? Or is Shogun a true one-off?

Not trying to take the lazy road, far from it. I fell in love with the sport and instantly went back to UFC 1 in an effort to learn more and gain a proper understanding and appreciation of what I was watching. Won't ever call myself an expert but in the last 4 years I've been to the start and back again and I don't have an answer, so I'm looking for help from those more knowledgeable than I.

Watch Pele vs Hughes and Pele vs Chuck

 

[Buffmeister]

Pele also had a style that was different from guys like Wanderlei or Shogun or Ninja...

He didn't go out going 100% on his opponents...it was a calm cocky heavy beatdown that his opponents received...