McGregor era fan - Learn me on Pele and Shogun GnP

[legatoblues]

Late modern era fan here with a twin focus educational thread:

I began watching MMA fulltime in mid 2014, but instantly began looking back to early events in an effort to better understand the sport. But two questions bugging me:

What was the real status / significance of Pele and why has there been no one with ground and pound violence equal to Shogun?

By the time MMA hit the mainstream, Pele appeared to be well past relevance, yet it seemed that he was still revered for early day achievements. Rose tinted glasses, or praise well deserved?

And Shogun - more of a technical question - what is it that made his striking attacks through the guard so violent and effective, and why does it seem like no one since has replicated this?

 

[Cor van Vooren]

Teach, dawg…teach.

 

[christer]

Nope. Watch the fights if you are really interested.

Dont take other peoples word for it when you can just watch. Form your own opinion. Or do not, but kinda shitty to expect others to spoonfeed you info and naive to expect the info to be good.


Edit:
Hmm, things like the claim thst nobody has been able to reproduce Shoguns gnp is debatable at best I would say. But please do form your own opinion on Pele. One thing you might not be able to see through old fight footage is sparring stories etc. Maybe search for old threads and articles

 

[Weuylf]

I always thought Fedor had the best GnP. Or Cain.

 

[king_ebeneezer]

watching mma fulltime...wtf does that even mean?

 

[JosephTessaro]

Late modern era fan here with a twin focus educational thread:

I began watching MMA fulltime in mid 2014, but instantly began looking back to early events in an effort to better understand the sport. But two questions bugging me:

What was the real status / significance of Pele and why has there been no one with ground and pound violence equal to Shogun?

By the time MMA hit the mainstream, Pele appeared to be well past relevance, yet it seemed that he was still revered for early day achievements. Rose tinted glasses, or praise well deserved?

And Shogun - more of a technical question - what is it that made his striking attacks through the guard so violent and effective, and why does it seem like no one since has replicated this?

If you are a modern day fan, you probably have access or signed up for Fight Pass. I didn't. If you go watch some older fights (UFC, I am uncertain if PRIDE is on Fight Pass) but you can watch fights from Tito Ortiz, GSP, Mendez, Couture, Kerr, Cain V., Fedor for additional examples of great ground and pound. Shit, Mark Munoz was good too. Lest we not forget Khabib and Jon Jones, they have pretty much mastered it. If PRIDE is not available on Fight Pass, google some of their fights and you can see how good they were/are.

 

[legatoblues]

Nope. Watch the fights if you are really interested.

Dont take other peoples word for it when you can just watch. Form your own opinion. Or do not, but kinda shitty to expect others to spoonfeed you info and naive to expect the info to be good.

I am watching, but what I have to watch is what's easily available. Ie Fightpass. I'm asking about Pele because I went back to the start and noticed that was a name that was held in extremely high regard. Unfortunately, he doesn't have such a good run in this context, but I'm not at all interested in dismissing his talent just based on UFC / Zuffa reliance. Well aware that there was a hell of a lot more going on, especially pre 2000's.

And the Shogun question is more of a technical one, I guess. How is it that only one person can be so devastating against an opponent through the full guard? Arona, Overeem... is there a greater display of pure violence from such a position that I've missed along the way? Why don't we see that form of effective ground striking today? Has the defensive game improved? Or is Shogun a true one-off?

Not trying to take the lazy road, far from it. I fell in love with the sport and instantly went back to UFC 1 in an effort to learn more and gain a proper understanding and appreciation of what I was watching. Won't ever call myself an expert but in the last 4 years I've been to the start and back again and I don't have an answer, so I'm looking for help from those more knowledgeable than I.

 

[The Schmoop]

Look into some Wayne Weems fights if you want to see what mma is really all about. Pele and Shogun are fine for cheap thrills and archaic technique.

Also see Andy Wang fights.

 

[OnCinemaFan]

How is it that only one person can be so devastating against an opponent through the full guard?

I can teach you how to devastate guys pretty good but it'll cost ya.

 

[Koro_11]

They were two guys who trained as hard as they fought, and came at you with everything but the kitchen sink with the only goal in mind being to violently and convincingly anhilate their opponents. Those were days where you had to be a legit tough guy to survive in mma/nhb circles.

Now some geek with cardio who learned a few techniques, can call himself a badass fighter because he can use it well enough to win some rounds, and get a judges decision.

 

[legatoblues]

Hmm, things like the claim thst nobody has been able to reproduce Shoguns gnp is debatable at best I would say. But please do form your own opinion on Pele. One thing you might not be able to see through old fight footage is sparring stories etc. Maybe search for old threads and articles

watching mma fulltime...wtf does that even mean?

If you are a modern day fan, you probably have access or signed up for Fight Pass. I didn't. If you go watch some older fights (UFC, I am uncertain if PRIDE is on Fight Pass) but you can watch fights from Tito Ortiz, GSP, Mendez, Couture, Kerr, Cain V., Fedor for additional examples of great ground and pound. Shit, Mark Munoz was good too. Lest we not forget Khabib and Jon Jones, they have pretty much mastered it. If PRIDE is not available on Fight Pass, google some of their fights and you can see how good they were/are.

Fulltime meaning MMA is now one of the only two sports I watch and I'm watching at a rate of approx 1-4 full cards each week on average.

As for Shogun GnP, the difference I've noted and am commenting on is specifically his quick finishing abilty.

I have an immense level of respect for Tito Ortiz as a GnP beast. When I first saw Mark Coleman I thought he would reign undefeated for years. When I then saw Mark Kerr, I was at a loss to understand how such a specimen could ever be defeated.

That style of GnP still seems very different to the Shogun guard breaking KO power he seemed to have. For relevance, I today watched Pride 33 for the first time. I know of the GnP ability of others of the time amd others since. But Fedor, Randleman, Gomi, GSP, Cain, Randy etc have never made me go "holy shit" like Shogun just did.

I know what's coming from here. I know Overeem is a bad example when it vomes to striking recipients. I know the magic was quickly lost. But why?

Edit: and as for the Pele comments - what I'm really looking for is thoughts from those that may have been there. Totally aware that things were different then compared to now. I don't look at the record overall, but more the comments from those at the time, words from Quadros and others about Pele as a competitor and a coach(?), I want to know where that came from because I appreciate and respect that times were different and would prefer to accept the thoughts of those who know, rather than judging purely on numbers.

 

[Uber_Noober]

[url=https://postimages.org/][/URL]

 

[silvasurfer5253]

Soccer kicks and face stomps made Shogun unstoppable. Those weren’t traditional aspects of ground and pound, but his ability to implement them on a grounded opponent was unparalleled.

 

[Fungoose]

 

[legatoblues]

Soccer kicks and face stomps made Shogun unstoppable. Those weren’t traditional aspects of ground and pound, but his ability to implement them on a grounded opponent was unparalleled.

That was my initial thought, but see Pride 33 under Unified Rules. Shogun dives straight through the guard of Overeem and scores the finish almost instantly from nothing.


Am I missing something or have I never seen a finish like that since?

 

[legatoblues]

Perfect. Thank you.

 

[JosephTessaro]

Fulltime meaning MMA is now one of the only two sports I watch and I'm watching at a rate of approx 1-4 full cards each week on average.

As for Shogun GnP, the difference I've noted and am commenting on is specifically his quick finishing abilty.

I have an immense level of respect for Tito Ortiz as a GnP beast. When I first saw Mark Coleman I thought he would reign undefeated for years. When I then saw Mark Kerr, I was at a loss to understand how such a specimen could ever be defeated.

That style of GnP still seems very different to the Shogun guard breaking KO power he seemed to have. For relevance, I today watched Pride 33 for the first time. I know of the GnP ability of others of the time amd others since. But Fedor, Randleman, Gomi, GSP, Cain, Randy etc have never made me go "holy shit" like Shogun just did.

I know what's coming from here. I know Overeem is a bad example when it vomes to striking recipients. I know the magic was quickly lost. But why?

Edit: and as for the Pele comments - what I'm really looking for is thoughts from those that may have been there. Totally aware that things were different then compared to now. I don't look at the record overall, but more the comments from those at the time, words from Quadros and others about Pele as a competitor and a coach(?), I want to know where that came from because I appreciate and respect that times were different and would prefer to accept the thoughts of those who know, rather than judging purely on numbers.

Shogun was a hell of a lot younger, undamaged and quick, that is why he was considered a beast. Pele was a great at it, but just as you stated, he got old and irrelevant and a lot of hardcore fans remember the days of old.

That's my 2 cents. The others I listed were just examples of who I thought was also awesome at it back in the day. I don't have any idea why they would not be mentioned as greats at GnP, I always thought a majority of MMA fans would say Ortiz, Kerr and Fedor were fricking beasts on the ground.

 

[Fungoose]

Soccer kicks and face stomps made Shogun unstoppable. Those weren’t traditional aspects of ground and pound, but his ability to implement them on a grounded opponent was unparalleled.

Wont disagree with that at all, but Shogun had devastating ground striking with his hands as well. Fedor and Shogun both were like agile panthers from top position, just gliding in for the killshot.

 

[Bartinho]

People used to play guard, especially when rounds were more than 5 min, so fighters developed great GnP in the guard. Now people scramble to their feet more or climb the wall to avoid GnP. GnP usually happens now after a knockdown or in a turtle position. Game is always changing.

 

[legatoblues]

Shogun was a hell of a lot younger, undamaged and quick, that is why he was considered a beast. Pele was a great at it, but just as you stated, he got old and irrelevant and a lot of hardcore fans remember the days of old.

That's my 2 cents. The others I listed were just examples of who I thought was also awesome at it back in the day. I don't have any idea why they would not be mentioned as greats at GnP, I always thought a majority of MMA fans would say Ortiz, Kerr and Fedor were fricking beasts on the ground.

Oh man, I can't at all stress how terrifying I thought Kerr was. Where was his ceiling? Imagine a focused Kerr without the distractions and negativity around him. Potential GOAT?

Ortiz, Coleman, Fedor, maximum respect for both, same for many others from that era. Frank Shamrock deserves recognition, as does Dan Severn and more. Randy's top pressure and control, Randlemans power.

Not trying to discredit the true GnP specialists, not all. Just the comment about Shogun is about his finish ability and inability to think of anyone as savage in that regard.