Mayweather's Pull-Back Counter Right Hand to the Jab

[MisterT]

Is this an advisable counter to the jab?

I've always been taught that pulling your head back from a punch can make you susceptible to your opponent's left hook to your jaw.

Anyone have any personal experience in using it successfully? Or is it something that is better suited for fighters with superb speed/reflexes?

 

[Kozbot]

that is just mayweather being fast as fuck

 

[dtravis92]

It's a great counter, especially if your opponent brings his jab hand back low (jabs straight but lets it go down instead of straight back to his guard) but you have to have an understanding of range to pull it off, your not just leaning your head back either.
Look at this video explaining how to do it correctly
A Boxing Slip - Avoid Punches with the Lay Back! | MyBoxingCoach

and here is an article on range
Range Finding in Boxing - Understand It! | MyBoxingCoach

Duane Ludwig also teaches it in his instructional dvd's, it should not open you up to the left hook if you keep your hands up

 

[Higus]

I've played around with it in practice. If you have a good sense of distance and your opponent is getting lazy/predictable with jabs, it can work. It they like to throw a lot of combinations, chances are you will be eating a right hand the same time you let yours go.

FMJ is ridiculously fast, btw.

 

[Smw]

It's a great counter, especially if your opponent brings his jab hand back low (jabs straight but lets it go down instead of straight back to his guard) but you have to have an understanding of range to pull it off, your not just leaning your head back either.
Look at this video explaining how to do it correctly
A Boxing Slip - Avoid Punches with the Lay Back! | MyBoxingCoach

and here is an article on range
Range Finding in Boxing - Understand It! | MyBoxingCoach

Duane Ludwig also teaches it in his instructional dvd's, it should not open you up to the left hook if you keep your hands up

Agreed %100.

Good footwork is imperative to executing this as well.

 

[Tropics1020]

he loves that move

just make sure you can do it in sparring before you try it out in a real fight

 

[NuTzOnSwOll]

It they like to throw a lot of combinations, chances are you will be eating a right hand the same time you let yours go.
.

no ...u guys dont understand what hes doing. More proof that boxing shouldnt be learned from Highlight Clips.

That counter is meant for the right hand NOT the jab. You parry/slip the jab then roll/fade the right. You dont have to worry about the left hook cuz your right cross counter will beat his hook.

Now, PBF does this counter ALOT. He also uses the shoulder roll efectively. That causes guys to miss their right and get exposed n countered.
That causes them to shut off/stop throwing the right in combinations.Notice how almost none are throwing combos anymore. Once hes done that THATS WHEN he starts doing that to their jab. Also by then hes got their timing down. He can feel when its coming as a combination and when its coming as a single strike.
Furthermore, his speed advantage ensures he will get there quick and his superb reactions will get him out of trouble. He also makes sure to move off at an angle and/or have his left hook waiting if the guy exposes himself to it by launching his right.
Look at 0:12 ,0:20, 0:30.

thats called breaking your opponent down ....step by step.

the other thing is that not all those shown are his fade-n-counter move. Hes slipping inside/outside and landing the right.
that takes away the attackers right hand.

 

[SUBfighterIL]

If your opponent follows with more then a jab its no good

 

[256]

It is a thing of beauty when Mayweather does it.

Just remember when you try it that we are not as great at boxing as him and we allow takedowns.

 

[BionikBlue]

no ...u guys dont understand what hes doing. More proof that boxing shouldnt be learned from Highlight Clips.

That counter is meant for the right hand NOT the jab. You parry/slip the jab then roll/fade the right. You dont have to worry about the left hook cuz your right cross counter will beat his hook.

Now, PBF does this counter ALOT. He also uses the shoulder roll efectively. That causes guys to miss their right and get exposed n countered.
That causes them to shut off/stop throwing the right in combinations.Notice how almost none are throwing combos anymore. Once hes done that THATS WHEN he starts doing that to their jab. Also by then hes got their timing down. He can feel when its coming as a combination and when its coming as a single strike.
Furthermore, his speed advantage ensures he will get there quick and his superb reactions will get him out of trouble. He also makes sure to move off at an angle and/or have his left hook waiting if the guy exposes himself to it by launching his right.
Look at 0:12 ,0:20, 0:30.

thats called breaking your opponent down ....step by step.

the other thing is that not all those shown are his fade-n-counter move. Hes slipping inside/outside and landing the right.
that takes away the attackers right hand.

What you're saying would make perfect sense if all the shots from this highlight weren't taken in the early rounds, because you are right about the opponents not following up on the jab but if you look closely, many of the sequences are from round 1 and 2.

To the original question, if you're fast enough/ have this level of reflexes and you're able to pull this counter consistently, good for you! But I think this video really shows Floyd's incredible speed and skill!

 

[devante]

What you're saying would make perfect sense if all the shots from this highlight weren't taken in the early rounds, because you are right about the opponents not following up on the jab but if you look closely, many of the sequences are from round 1 and 2.

To the original question, if you're fast enough/ have this level of reflexes and you're able to pull this counter consistently, good for you! But I think this video really shows Floyd's incredible speed and skill!

when ur as good as pbf it doesnt take you long to figure guys out and basically shutdown aspects of their games, esp when you have that speed adv. But w/in a few moments or the first few exchanges guys realize what they can/can't land; what leaves them open and what doesn't and once that is realized they start limiting what they do offensively which allows him to pick and choose what to do because those guys have lessened the options he has to deal w/ or pick from.

so it might take another guy 4-5 rnds to break their guy down or figure him out; its gonna take pbf a few minutes at best, esp when facing the usual suspects in boxing (3rd 4th tier guys)

 

[devante]

no ...u guys dont understand what hes doing. More proof that boxing shouldnt be learned from Highlight Clips.

That counter is meant for the right hand NOT the jab. You parry/slip the jab then roll/fade the right. You dont have to worry about the left hook cuz your right cross counter will beat his hook.

Now, PBF does this counter ALOT. He also uses the shoulder roll efectively. That causes guys to miss their right and get exposed n countered.
That causes them to shut off/stop throwing the right in combinations.Notice how almost none are throwing combos anymore. Once hes done that THATS WHEN he starts doing that to their jab. Also by then hes got their timing down. He can feel when its coming as a combination and when its coming as a single strike.
Furthermore, his speed advantage ensures he will get there quick and his superb reactions will get him out of trouble. He also makes sure to move off at an angle and/or have his left hook waiting if the guy exposes himself to it by launching his right.
Look at 0:12 ,0:20, 0:30.

thats called breaking your opponent down ....step by step.

the other thing is that not all those shown are his fade-n-counter move. Hes slipping inside/outside and landing the right.
that takes away the attackers right hand.

dropping knowledge

 

[ssullivan80]

no ...u guys dont understand what hes doing. More proof that boxing shouldnt be learned from Highlight Clips.

That counter is meant for the right hand NOT the jab. You parry/slip the jab then roll/fade the right. You dont have to worry about the left hook cuz your right cross counter will beat his hook.

Now, PBF does this counter ALOT. He also uses the shoulder roll efectively. That causes guys to miss their right and get exposed n countered.
.

Bingo! Great explanation!

I can't actually see the clip because youtube doesn't work at my office. But im almost positive it is a clip of Floyd when he narrows up his shoulders, slides inside, puts his lead elbow/forearm out in front of him, leans back and throws that vertical fist right hand from low to high..... ? if that is indeed what is in the clip......

Truth is this counter (if it is the one described above) has little to do with speed and everything to do with timing, postioning. By narrowing up and sliding inside (hips lower than opponent) Floyd uses that lead arm to hold his opponent and by being narrow inside he limits their lateral mobility and forces them into attempting to throw their right hand over the top of his lead shoulder, by being narrow he can just lean back and fire that low to high right hand. Floyds hip positioning, and lead elbow/forearm posted in his opponents sternum forces his opponent to come up high (on their toes) and try to lean in and throw the shot over the top, Being that high on the toes it is tough to get much ass into the punch and Floyds shoulder rolls up high to protect his chin, worst case scenario the shot glances of his shoulder and catches him in the top of the head........ but his opponent ends up face diving into that right hand. You see him getting guys of the jab with this counter in anticipation of them following with the right hand, only as mentioned above/below, Floyd just has their timing down at that point and catches them early before they have a chance to get that right off. This is how Floyd sets up that quick left check hook so well, he puts a quick pivot in after that low to high right hand and he ends up inside his opponents guard, basically he leaves them in a position where any shot he throws will beat them to the punch (usually that ends up being his left check hook, followed by right UC or cross).

This is not nearly as easy a counter as Floyd makes it look, the timing and footwork really have to be very precise to make it effective, goes to show his boxing genius that he can make it look so easy... it is not! Actually, if you want to see the repercussions of not timing this counter correctly watch how Mosely catches Floyd with that big right hand early, Floyd gave away what he was trying to do and didnt get inside Mosley's guard quick enough, that is what got him caught with that big right early. For other good examples of this technique watch Bernard Hopkins and James Toney both do this same counter exceptionally well also, just a little different. Watch Bernard vs. Pavlik or James Toney vs. Ruiz, good examples in both those fights.

 

[ssullivan80]

Ok, so i just was actually just able to watch the video (not at work anymore, got youtube). The right hand counter I described below is similar but not quite the same as the one shown in the video by the TS. See clip below, you will see several times in this clip how he uses that lead shoulder to get inside the guard, if ya watch close you will see him throw that right hand low to high like i described below/above.


WATCH AT 9:03 OF SECOND CLIP, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DESCRIBE

 

[ambertch]

Bingo! Great explanation!

Truth is this counter (if it is the one described above) has little to do with speed and everything to do with timing, postioning.

Bingo to you too, sir. Yup the speed is definitely a big component but the timing is much more important.

If he has one god given talent, it's that PBF is really good at reading opponents. Sure you wouldn't want to counter a jab with a right hand, but he has a freaky sixth sense of his opponent's intention (seems to know if his opponent is going to follow up the shot or not) and then uses his speed to make sure he throws between the 1-2 anyways so you couldn't catch him if you wanted to.

Pretty amazing he was doing this counter to Shane Mosley, a guy just as fast as him.

 

[ssullivan80]

If he has one god given talent, it's that PBF is really good at reading opponents. Sure you wouldn't want to counter a jab with a right hand, but he has a freaky sixth sense of his opponent's intention (seems to know if his opponent is going to follow up the shot or not) and then uses his speed to make sure he throws between the 1-2 anyways so you couldn't catch him if you wanted to.

Pretty amazing he was doing this counter to Shane Mosley, a guy just as fast as him.

He is remarkable at reading his opponents, always seems to be able to know what they want to do before they even know what there going to do. I think allot of Floyds ability to use counters that most guys cant is that he really is exceptionally good at baiting the reaction he wants. Almost to the point where he will leave an opponent no choice but to react exactly as he intends them too...... In that first clip at the beginning of this thread in several instances you can see Floyd take a short lateral step (toward opponents lead), lean forward at the waist (setting his weight on that front foot), and just slightly drop his right hand, it basically begs to have a guy throw a jab at him....... by having the bend in the waist and heavy on the front foot he baits the jab, springs/leans back by transferring that weight back to the rear foot and fires his cross right over top the jab (just picks up his elbow to slide it over the jab)...... That is incredible sense of timing and distance to be able to do that, and he does it against very good fighters.......

I was really surprised to see him be able to use that counter on Mosely, and he did it several times throughout the fight. Really, I think Shane is actually faster than Floyd, just does not have Floyds boxing IQ, no one really does for that matter! Floyd tried to come in early on Shane and narrow up inside and Shane just about sat him on his ass, I think Floyd was surprised at how quick Shane actually was when caught that first big right hand..... nonetheless, Floyd's greatest talent in my opinion is his ability to adapt to any situation, against any fighter and force them to fight his kind of fight......

 

[1Strike]

Bingo to you too, sir. Yup the speed is definitely a big component but the timing is much more important.

If he has one god given talent, it's that PBF is really good at reading opponents. Sure you wouldn't want to counter a jab with a right hand, but he has a freaky sixth sense of his opponent's intention (seems to know if his opponent is going to follow up the shot or not) and then uses his speed to make sure he throws between the 1-2 anyways so you couldn't catch him if you wanted to.

Pretty amazing he was doing this counter to Shane Mosley, a guy just as fast as him.

You can use the right hand for so many counters to the jab -

Here are a few:

1.Slip outside , counter with a right cross

2.Time\anticipate the jab and counter with the overhand right while slipping to the inside (your left)

3.Catch the jab with your right hand and counter right off the catch with a right hand.

4.And finally contrary to what some of you guys are saying you can also pull back and counter the jab with a straight right right.


Bang Ludwig demonstrates the "Pull Back" or "Pull":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Like all counters and techniques , some people learn certain moves easier than others , but it is good to learn at least 3-4 counters to any offensive move:


Example for punches - I teach my students to catch (the jab) , slip , duck and block and the counters that can be done off all those defensive moves. Once they have those down I will also teach them to use pullbacks as well.
It's all a matter of repetition and once they repeat something in a drill or on the mitts enough, they will do it in sparring and in their fights.

 

[devante]

He is remarkable at reading his opponents, always seems to be able to know what they want to do before they even know what there going to do. I think allot of Floyds ability to use counters that most guys cant is that he really is exceptionally good at baiting the reaction he wants. Almost to the point where he will leave an opponent no choice but to react exactly as he intends them too...... In that first clip at the beginning of this thread in several instances you can see Floyd take a short lateral step (toward opponents lead), lean forward at the waist (setting his weight on that front foot), and just slightly drop his right hand, it basically begs to have a guy throw a jab at him....... by having the bend in the waist and heavy on the front foot he baits the jab, springs/leans back by transferring that weight back to the rear foot and fires his cross right over top the jab (just picks up his elbow to slide it over the jab)...... That is incredible sense of timing and distance to be able to do that, and he does it against very good fighters.......

I was really surprised to see him be able to use that counter on Mosely, and he did it several times throughout the fight. Really, I think Shane is actually faster than Floyd, just does not have Floyds boxing IQ, no one really does for that matter! Floyd tried to come in early on Shane and narrow up inside and Shane just about sat him on his ass, I think Floyd was surprised at how quick Shane actually was when caught that first big right hand..... nonetheless, Floyd's greatest talent in my opinion is his ability to adapt to any situation, against any fighter and force them to fight his kind of fight......[/QUOTE]

people glaze over this point quite often, as fast and smooth and dynamic as pbf is; it's his boxing ability and his boxing iq is what seperates him from the zab judah's and shane mosley's. An supports the point i made earlier, that pbf can figure you out or adjust to whatever your doing much faster than anyone else; it won't take 5-6rnds, it can happen as quickly as 2-3 rnds, 1 rd or in 1-2 minutes of a round.

he was the smarts to figure things out andd the ability to carry them out; which brings me back to this tech, if you don't truly understand what your seeing when pbf does his pull counter, then even if you can repeat the overall general movements. Your a)not gonna be able to effectively set it up and/or b)your not gonna know the right situation to use it in or the right guy to use it again; which brings me to the ability, most of us lack the ability to pull it off esp in the case of many lacking the iq or flexibilty (tech) to set it up, readjust or execute.

the tech is very effective, but complex and technical; so if you don't have a good tech-strategical- situational sense OR exceptional ability, your prob not gonna be able to use it often if at all. You will lack the skills and/or the ability to make up for the lack of skills.
He quickly figures out what you can do, what you can't, what you can defend, what you can't, what you can attack, what you can't; then he builds on that quickly, going from scoring, to controlling, to dominating very quickly.

 

[ssullivan80]

You can use the right hand for so many counters to the jab -

Here are a few:

1.Slip outside , counter with a right cross
I would say slipping to the outside and countering the jab with a right hand, should be with an overhand right, unless you slip n pivot, then you would use the cross.... my opinion! if your opponent is throwing 1,2 and you slip outside and try to throw a straight cross, your oppoents cross will get to you first, vs. the overhand will duck you underneath his cross. I.E: slip outside, drop n roll the overhand over the top moving back across your opponents centerline...... just watch out for an UC....


2.Time\anticipate the jab and counter with the overhand right while slipping to the inside (your left)
slipping to the inside is where I think you would be better served using the straight cross, the overhand will dive yo ass into an UC, quick like!


3.Catch the jab with your right hand and counter right off the catch with a right hand.

4.And finally contrary to what some of you guys are saying you can also pull back and counter the jab with a straight right right.

Like all counters and techniques , some people learn certain moves easier than others , but it is good to learn at least 3-4 counters to any offensive move:


Example for punches - I teach my students to catch (the jab) , slip , duck and block and the counters that can be done off all those defensive moves. Once they have those down I will also teach them to use pullbacks as well.
It's all a matter of repetition and once they repeat something in a drill or on the mitts enough, they will do it in sparring and in their fights.

comments in red above


I never argued you couldn't counter a jab with a right cross, absolutely you can. However, it is a counter that does require a good sense of timing/anticipation and I would hardly call it a novice counter. Either way, the reference to the difficulty of that counter is the way Mayweather does it, how he sets it up and how well he executes it against very skilled guys. As for the low to high right hand counter from the shell that he uses inside his opponents guard, that is far from easy to perfect and it definitely requires some excellent timing, posturing, footwork and balance to do effectively with any consistency.

 

[Mumrik]

ssullivan80, I'm a bit confused by your comments above.

What you're critiquing in 2) above is essentially how Shogun KO'ed Machida. The only difference is that Machida fights southpaw most of the time, so Shogun was countering a very fast straight left. He nevertheless slipped to the inside and countered with the overhand right.

In Ippo they call that counter a cross because of the way the arms cross, but the cross is described as a straight punch everywhere else. It looks like a overhand right to me and very much like what Shogun did to Machida's straight left.

Anyway, are you arguing against that counter?