Media Max Kellerman on ESPN: Manny Pacquiao has a case for the best pound-for-pound fighter ever

[Hagler]

Kellerman > @TidWell

 

[Absolut]

. Ive been rational you guys are emotional this is funny. you guys saying ration when you guys were throwing death threats at me and insults.

Uh huh

 

[nac386]

Pac is a great fighter with a great resume

Ali having foreman in particular gived him the edge and i rate liston very highly as well

Pacs best wins are probably barrera and morales actually now that i think of it

Two great fighters. But ali still has the better resume imo

I think Ali has the greater short-list of wins, and Pacquiao has more depth and the incredible p4p accomplishment of having championships across 8 divisions.

It all depends on how you weigh those things. I think Ali’s best 3 wins do outshine Pacquiao’s best 3 wins. But when you zoom out, it starts tilting more towards Pacquiao.

 

[JayE]

But he doesn’t, he has one.

Like I said, that is another example of how we judge recent fighters more harshly. We nitpick every little thing about recent fighters, but we do not do that with fighters from previous eras.

I am sure Manny Pacquiao is not the only guy to have won and lost close fights. Maybe even the great Willie Pep, The man who supposedly was given a round without throwing a single punch. Lol. If true, no that tells us quite a bit about how judges may have favored him. If untrue, it tells us quite a bit about the exaggerations often used when healing praise to these old time fighters.

The point is that losing 3 fights to a guy considered a top 3 FW of all time when you're past it isn't necessarily damning. It's not dissimilar to being Pac 2-1-1 (with both wins being highly controversial) with a guy like Marquez. The story about him winning a round without throwing a punch is bullshit, btw.

 

[defjaam]

Ill respond to my part

Ali has the 2nd best resume in boxing history imo. Foreman, frazier,liston,patterson,norton,chuvalo,bonovena, lyle, shavers, ernie, williams, quarry etc

Not to mention a lot of those wins were after ali’s physical prime. I don’t think it’s particularly close actually and i think pac is great

I mean Bonavena, Terrell, a Cleveland Williams who was partially an invalid, Quarry... All good names, but are they better wins than Mike Tyson's wins, who gets often criticized?

I love Ali, but he was bigger than boxing, and his personality clouds many peoples view of him. Because of that Ali gets massive credit for almost every win, while others boxers wins are under strict observation.

 

[XThe GreatestX]

I think Ali has the greater short-list of wins, and Pacquiao has more depth and the incredible p4p accomplishment of having championships across 8 divisions.

It all depends on how you weigh those things. I think Ali’s best 3 wins do outshine Pacquiao’s best 3 wins. But when you zoom out, it starts tilting more towards Pacquiao.

You make good points. Here is where i will push back tho

Oscar. What was he in 2008? Same with Mosley in 11( or whenever that fight was)

When i point to Ali can say prime Foreman, prime Frazier, older Liston but not really shot, prime Norton, prime Lyle/Shavers/Quarry/Terrell/Zora/Oscar etc

What does Pac have in comparison other than Morales, Barrera? JMM is great. I don’t even know who Broner compares too? Hatton is a good win

Cotto is kinda a weird one. Fresh off the margs beating. I found Cotto to be excellene during the freddie roach run but there was definitely a dead period there in between

 

[XThe GreatestX]

I mean Bonavena, Terrell, a Cleveland Williams who was partially an invalid, Quarry... All good names, but are they better wins than Mike Tyson's wins, who gets often criticized?

I love Ali, but he was bigger than boxing, and his personality clouds many peoples view of him. Because of that Ali gets massive credit for almost every win, while others boxers wins are under strict observation.

This is true

Its Foreman/Fraizer/Liston that set Ali apart from every other HW imo

And i actually think terrell was underrated

 

[nac386]

The point is that losing 3 fights to a guy considered a top 3 FW of all time when you're past it isn't necessarily damning. It's not dissimilar to being Pac 2-1-1 (with both wins being highly controversial) with a guy like Marquez. The story about him winning a round without throwing a punch is bullshit, btw.

I never claimed that losing three fights to the same guy was damning. I was just pointing out that the guys at the very tip top of the all-time great list were not infallible. They lost sometimes. But we always find excuses for their losses, you can see that throughout this thread.

The fact that the Willie Pep story is nonsense highlights the nostalgia factor at play. People quote that story regularly, even boxing “experts” reference it.

 

[PUO3]

I don't really know what the specific rules of any of the forums are, nor do I really care to look through his posts and find out which specific rule was broke by each post, but when the entire community here despises him and thinks he ruins the place, maybe it would be in the interest of moderation to ban him. Not that the site owners give a shit about anything aside from clicks, and maybe he does increase clicks, so whatever.

And yet everyone keeps on conversing.

Theres a simple way to let his threads die if you think theyre stupid.

 

[JayE]

And yet everyone keeps on conversing.

Theres a simple way to let his threads die if you think theyre stupid.

I mean, some do. I know several regulars who get turned off of the place particularly because of people like him. I mean, the purpose of moderation is to weed out shit heels who take away from the place, right? Or as long as the conversation continues do no rules really apply?

 

[JayE]

I never claimed that losing three fights to the same guy was damning. I was just pointing out that the guys at the very tip top of the all-time great list were not infallible. They lost sometimes. But we always find excuses for their losses, you can see that throughout this thread.

The fact that the Willie Pep story is nonsense highlights the nostalgia factor at play. People quote that story regularly, even boxing “experts” reference it.

I mean, most agree Pac belongs in the same general conversation as Pep.

 

[Absolut]

I mean, most agree Pac belongs in the same general conversation as Pep.

Pac could teabag Tidwell and he’d complain his balls weren’t hairy enough

 

[don't quote me!]

I think Ali has the greater short-list of wins, and Pacquiao has more depth and the incredible p4p accomplishment of having championships across 8 divisions.

It all depends on how you weigh those things. I think Ali’s best 3 wins do outshine Pacquiao’s best 3 wins. But when you zoom out, it starts tilting more towards Pacquiao.

Ali in his 60's prime was untouchable, he didn't have a Singsurat on his CV, he didn't even have a morales moment.

When he came back in the 70's he was physically outmatched, similiar to manny's challenge of going thru the weight classes and he still cleaned out the division, even against "manny pacquaio ATG level fighters like" Foreman and co and in the 70's physically outmatched after yrs away from the ring, he won every rivalry, no Juan Marquez's in the closet. As someone said he would effectively adapt to get it done against fiercer competition than Manny faced even in his prime, in his ideal weight classes

 

[nac386]

You make good points. Here is where i will push back tho

Oscar. What was he in 2008? Same with Mosley in 11( or whenever that fight was)

When i point to Ali can say prime Foreman, prime Frazier, older Liston but not really shot, prime Norton, prime Lyle/Shavers/Quarry/Terrell/Zora/Oscar etc

What does Pac have in comparison other than Morales, Barrera? JMM is great. I don’t even know who Broner compares too? Hatton is a good win

Cotto is kinda a weird one. Fresh off the margs beating. I found Cotto to be excellene during the freddie roach run but there was definitely a dead period there in between

Honest question, and I don’t know the answer, when you look at all those guys that Muhammad Ali fought are you really analyzing every detail of that exact moment of their career? Ali never fought a guy who was not at his career best that night?

I think we put way more focus on those fine details now than we do when we look back into the past.

Sonny Liston was 12 years older than Ali. I have a feeling that if Pacquiao fought a man that much older, he’d be called out for fighting a man out of his prime. But it’s considered a great win for Ali, as it should be.

 

[XThe GreatestX]

Honest question, and I don’t know the answer, when you look at all those guys that Muhammad Ali fought are you really analyzing every detail of that exact moment of their career? Ali never fought a guy who was not at his career best that night?

I think we put way more focus on those fine details now than we do when we look back into the past.

Sonny Liston was 12 years older than Ali. I have a feeling that if Pacquiao fought a man that much older, he’d be called out for fighting a man out of his prime. But it’s considered a great win for Ali, as it should be.

Do my best but of course it was it’s easier to do in the present in real time

 

[JayE]

Sonny Liston was 12 years older than Ali. I have a feeling that if Pacquiao fought a man that much older, he’d be called out for fighting a man out of his prime. But it’s considered a great win for Ali, as it should be.

Not really a great example considering Liston was the HW champion and the the clear favourite, while Ali was barely 22.

 

[ferrisjso]

LOL just stop Max now you are reaching hard there, I will give Max Kellerman credit on something that dude never ages wtf looks the same as he did 21 years ago when he was on Friday night fights.

I think he's being insane but he is laying out that insane case skillfully here.

 

[TidWell]

I have to give @nac386 credit he is really defending Pacquiao convincingly here, Im even learning something from some of his posts and open to it.

while @mozfonky shot himself in the foot with the chin argument to discredit Pacman. Im starting to think Moz might actually be trolling us especially when he says he doesn't watch the fights but will pop in to the play by play threads lol

 

[TidWell]

Pac could teabag Tidwell and he’d complain his balls weren’t hairy enough

You made me laugh with that one, but you guy still don't let up with the insults lol

 

[Stormtrooper85]

LOL just stop Max now you are reaching hard there, I will give Max Kellerman credit on something that dude never ages wtf looks the same as he did 21 years ago when he was on Friday night fights.

Another pac hating thread from a delusional shit poster. Shocking