Marcelo Garcia in prime vs Gordon Ryan now, who's better?

[mataleaos]

I agree though, he will never be considered in the same class of the "holy trinity" of Marcelo/Jacare/Roger without dominating outside of no-gi. He's a fantastic specialist, but it seems the sport of submission grappling may have diverged too far for one person to be truly legendarily dominant in both sports at this point.

A big part me of hates seeing how much gi and no-gi are diverging but I think we've crossed the tipping point. There are only a handful of people left that I think can make the podium at the Mundials and ADCC, and they share a few qualities. I'm sure there's some more, but JT, Lepri, Cobrinha, and Buchecha all come to mind.

They are hardened ADCC veterans and deeply understand the rule set. In the gi they have a game that is not that dissimilar from their adcc game (wrestling/not relying mainly on gi grips/crushing top pressure). Another trait they have in common is that most of them have enough mileage to retire sooner than later and not have it to be a surprise. And I guess Cobrinha already did.

Once we see these athletes step away I think the Mundials and ADCC are going to mostly be taken over by those that specialize in each. I think there was one very overlooked element to the lack of success of the no-gi specialists up until about 5 years ago (and it's anything technical.) But this is my 3rd post in a row and I don't want to keep going on and on if the discussion is tapped out.

 

[Overtures]

Marcelo is my favorite grappler of all time.


Rafa i think is the most unbearable, regardless of weight.


Gordon still hasn’t surpassed Buchecha or Roger, but has equaled them.

 

[mataleaos]

a

Marcelo is my favorite grappler of all time.


Rafa i think is the most unbearable, regardless of weight.

May I ask what you don't like about Rafa? I can only think of 2 things. The first thing is that he seemed to have a very carefully managed image and for as many years as we saw him compete in some ways I don't know if any of us really got to learn much about him. It's a sport so he was never obligated to let anyone in. But I've never seen anyone in BJJ before or after that seemed quite as guarded about his image as Rafa did. The second thing is him going to Japan once a year and racking up dozens of points on mostly hobbyist black belts for the 'gram and youtube highlights. He'd sub them in the final minutes when he could've subbed them at any time. I remember some people thinking that as a bit self-serving.

I can see how that rubbed some people the wrong way but I still thought his jiu-jitsu was beautiful.

 

[Overtures]

a



May I ask what you don't like about Rafa? I can only think of 2 things. The first thing is that he seemed to have a very carefully managed image and for as many years as we saw him compete in some ways I don't know if any of us really got to learn much about him. It's a sport so he was never obligated to let anyone in. But I've never seen anyone in BJJ before or after that seemed quite as guarded about his image as Rafa did. The second thing is him going to Japan once a year and racking up dozens of points on mostly hobbyist black belts for the 'gram and youtube highlights. He'd sub them in the final minutes when he could've subbed them at any time. I remember some people thinking that as a bit self-serving.

I can see how that rubbed some people the wrong way but I still thought his jiu-jitsu was beautiful.

I didn’t know that about Rafa


Basically his record is insane. It’s so long and he barely lost. I think his final streak was longer than anyone’s.


I’m not to sure about his biggest wins but having so many wins against Cohnrina is enough on its own

 

[mataleaos]

I didn’t know that about Rafa


Basically his record is insane. It’s so long and he barely lost. I think his final streak was longer than anyone’s.


I’m not to sure about his biggest wins but having so many wins against Cohnrina is enough on its own

Oh. You said unbearable but clearly meant unbeatable. So I responded to a typo. I thought you were saying that he was awesome but that you did not like him I’m sorry

 

[Overtures]

Oh. You said unbearable but clearly meant unbeatable. So I responded to a typo. I thought you were saying that he was awesome but that you did not like him I’m sorry

No worries.

 

[Riccardobaleia]

Marcelo vs Gordon would be so crazy to see one day.
If you are a Marcelo fan, check out my BJJ Profile video I did on his career at ADCC

 

[mrsenor]

Gordon is no fat ricco rodriguez

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

a



May I ask what you don't like about Rafa? I can only think of 2 things. The first thing is that he seemed to have a very carefully managed image and for as many years as we saw him compete in some ways I don't know if any of us really got to learn much about him. It's a sport so he was never obligated to let anyone in. But I've never seen anyone in BJJ before or after that seemed quite as guarded about his image as Rafa did. The second thing is him going to Japan once a year and racking up dozens of points on mostly hobbyist black belts for the 'gram and youtube highlights. He'd sub them in the final minutes when he could've subbed them at any time. I remember some people thinking that as a bit self-serving.

I can see how that rubbed some people the wrong way but I still thought his jiu-jitsu was beautiful.

He doesn't do this because of his ego or wanting to target hobbyist black belts. You ever wonder why he does it yearly? He gets paid to go to Japan and show up to compete. This brings an attraction to that competition. I'm quite sure the tournament promoters and his sponsor don't want him showing up and subbing guys in under a minute each because that doesn't showcase the full artistic beauty of their jiu-jitsu. He doesn't unnecessarily injure them (which he could) either and doesn't crank submissions on them like how he does at Mundials. The black belts competing against him are perfectly willing so there's no problem.

 

[randomg1t]

He doesn't do this because of his ego or wanting to target hobbyist black belts. You ever why he does it yearly? He gets paid to go to Japan and show up to compete. This brings an attraction to that competition. I'm quite sure the tournament promoters and his sponsor don't want him showing up and subbing guys in under a minute each because that doesn't showcase the full artistic beauty of their jiu-jitsu. He doesn't unnecessarily injure them (which he could) either and doesn't crank submissions on them like how he does at Mundials. The black belts competing against him are perfectly willing so there's no problem.

i think in his prime, rafa was the p4p best jiu jitsu fighter in history. he was so sharp it made my eyes bleed just watching him. truly breath-taking technique. his online instructional site also has some of the best material i've ever watched, his gym looks cool as ice, and i believe his wife is hot. he's got a lot of things going for him.

that said, i think @mataleaos is quite right about him. he did protect his image, and the training and competition footage he and his team put online is very selective, to say the least. there have been a couple of stories of rafa and gui putting notable names visiting their gym through the ringer during training, then finally sparring them after they were dead tired - and filming it for their youtube channel. keenan has gone on record to say that rafa is a p4p jiu jitsu king, as well as say that when they sparred he did better against mendes than the brothers were comfortable with, and while the session was filmed it was never published anywhere.

now i know he can film and publish whatever he wants, he has the right to build his brand whichever way he pleases... but i do have to admit it comes off kinda insecure and childish.

i don't really have an issue with him clowning regular people at the tournament in japan, i know i wouldn't mind losing 15-0 to him in a match before he armbars me in the final seconds. it's freaking rafael mendes, man. everyone i train with would've been jealous if i ever got to roll with him.

 

[Whitebeltatlife]

Right now I'd say Marcelo, but by the end of his career I think it would certainly be Gordon who is only getting better. Flo released an infographic today showing his move away from leglocks to RNC's which shows his shift and growth.
I guess the lack of Gi will always hold him back though.

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

i think in his prime, rafa was the p4p best jiu jitsu fighter in history. he was so sharp it made my eyes bleed just watching him. truly breath-taking technique. his online instructional site also has some of the best material i've ever watched, his gym looks cool as ice, and i believe his wife is hot. he's got a lot of things going for him.

that said, i think @mataleaos is quite right about him. he did protect his image, and the training and competition footage he and his team put online is very selective, to say the least. there have been a couple of stories of rafa and gui putting notable names visiting their gym through the ringer during training, then finally sparring them after they were dead tired - and filming it for their youtube channel. keenan has gone on record to say that rafa is a p4p jiu jitsu king, as well as say that when they sparred he did better against mendes than the brothers were comfortable with, and while the session was filmed it was never published anywhere.

now i know he can film and publish whatever he wants, he has the right to build his brand whichever way he pleases... but i do have to admit it comes off kinda insecure and childish.

i don't really have an issue with him clowning regular people at the tournament in japan, i know i wouldn't mind losing 15-0 to him in a match before he armbars me in the final seconds. it's freaking rafael mendes, man. everyone i train with would've been jealous if i ever got to roll with him.

Fair enough, all very valid points.

His image is carefully built and managed to a mystique. The difference between hype and no substance is, he is one of the GOATs in his weight class. He doesn't venture out to the open classes as much, but you can't blame a featherweight for that. As much as his image is built and managed, he fully backs it up and proves his greatness and skill. However, I feel his achievements and skill nullify the need for such management of his image. Usually people who need to maintain a carefully built image don't have substantial achievements or are phonies claiming to be better than they actually are.

I've heard many stories of them filming in the gym against other big names and posting when they are dominant. In fact I remember the fiasco with Rafa vs Vitor Oliveira in training. Rafa is destroying Vitor, as Vitor had been exhausted training for an hour and Rafa was fresh. Word was Vitor was livid about it after he heard about it. The video was taken down a few hours later from their site

 

[randomg1t]

Fair enough, all very valid points.

His image is carefully built and managed to a mystique. The difference between hype and no substance is, he is one of the GOATs in his weight class. He doesn't venture out to the open classes as much, but you can't blame a featherweight for that. As much as his image is built and managed, he fully backs it up and proves his greatness and skill. However, I feel his achievements and skill nullify the need for such management of his image. Usually people who need to maintain a carefully built image don't have substantial achievements or are phonies claiming to be better than they actually are.

I've heard many stories of them filming in the gym against other big names and posting when they are dominant. In fact I remember the fiasco with Rafa vs Vitor Oliveira in training. Rafa is destroying Vitor, as Vitor had been exhausted training for an hour and Rafa was fresh. Word was Vitor was livid about it after he heard about it. The video was taken down a few hours later from their site

yeah, which is precisely why it rubs me the wrong way. he is jiu jitsu royalty. he and cobrinha are easily the best in their generation, and arguably all time greats... and i'd say rafa is the better of the two. not by much, but i consider him better.

marcelo puts his sparring sessions online all the time. he is marcelo, so he is choking fools as expected, but i've seen a bunch of videos in which he just got caught. some of his better pupils obviously know his game, he isn't going 100%, the stars align, and BAM! - the mighty garcia taps out. his image isn't tarnished, nobody thinks any less of him, we're impressed by the quality of his rolling partner's technique.

obviously these guys won't go out of their way to show the world how they got beaten in their own gym... but the way they approach it just seems weird. but like i said, it's a minor thing and i'm a big fan of their for a lot of other reasons.