Marcelo Garcia in prime vs Gordon Ryan now, who's better?

[yetanother]

There's levels to the roid game though; like the difference between buying a couple packs of winstrol from that one guy at the gym, vs you and or your endocrine specialists helping to personalize a stack and cycle of designer peptides.

Is there that much of a difference in BJJ if you don't have to doge drug tests and have good luck so you don't end up with complications?
Is what say Buchecha is taking significantly better than what Mark Kerr took?

 

[rmongler]

Is there that much of a difference in BJJ if you don't have to doge drug tests and have good luck so you don't end up with complications?
Is what say Buchecha is taking significantly better than what Mark Kerr took?

Mark Kerr had experience from a more developed sport, so i think there might not necessarily be too much difference between those particular examples across time, insofaras the roid game for bjj specific athletes should build up towards similar levels of institutional knowledge.

 

[tekkenfan]

Yeah, Marcelo was all about using his size & brute strength.

Lol at trying to say that’s how Gordon wins

 

[tekkenfan]

Marcelo is athletic as fuck, Gordon nowadays is a regular roided out douchebag.

Who happens to be the very best no Gi grappler alive today lol

 

[Peteyandjia]

Lol at trying to say that’s how Gordon wins

Your assessment of my post is about as good as your assessment of Marcelo’s game.

I wasn’t dissing Gordon at all — he is extremely technical.

 

[PayPerView]

Elite level dumbness in this post.

Go watch MG roll with top modern nogi competitors. His technical level is completely absurd. And unlike Gordon he has supreme technical skill both in gi and nogi.

Overall the technical level of BJJ is constantly improving, but especially in ADCC it’s still surprisingly uneven. Roided up players with minimal technical skills and experience can do quite well under ADCC rules, as we’ve seen repeatedly.

The idea that nogi players nowadays are super technical while MG, Xande, Roger, Braulio, etc were leagues behind is rank nonsense. The biggest change is frankly the unbelievable amount of doping you see in elite nogi comps now. Which has only helped drive a further split into gi v nogi specialized competitors.

Lol. Starts off a response with bad faith name-calling instead of just making a point and being done with it. And this guy is a mod. Yep this forum is done.

Toodles.

 

[rmongler]

Lol. Starts off a response with bad faith name-calling instead of just making a point and being done with it. And this guy is a mod. Yep this forum is done.

Toodles.

If u're having a bad day bro, or feeling down about lif, it's good to have an outlet for decompression, like having friends you can talk it out with, or watching cute anime girls; just don't keep it inside and let it taint ur feelings fam.

 

[Zankou]

Lol. Starts off a response with bad faith name-calling instead of just making a point and being done with it. And this guy is a mod. Yep this forum is done. It’s

Toodles.

Mods have never been subject to different posting rules on these forums.

You’ve posted just once on the website since April. And your posts at that time consisted of calling people dummies and complaining.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/hope-you-crybabies-are-happy.4100149/page-5#post-159839577

I’m sure you’ll be missed.

 

[Zankou]

People have been roided out in bjj forever.

Plainly true, and also always true for ADCC (Mark Kerr anyone?), but it’s gotten way more prominent in nogi recently, to the point where it’s becoming hard to identify elite guys who don’t look roided to the gills. That used to be the exception.

And yeah, obviously you can’t usually tell visually alone whether any given guy is on gear, but the overall progression is pretty clear.

 

[mataleaos]

Just a bit surprised you picked Cummings in comparison with Marcelo. I think Cummings is (or was, does he even train anymore?) too much in love with excessively being on bottom to look like Marcelo could have been if heelhook enhaced.

That's a very good point. I shoukd've been more specific. I remember whatever EBI Cummings won where he beat Bill Cooper in the finals. That EBI Eddie had a way more diverse game. He was arm dragging to the back and finishing rear nakeds. He was snapping down to guillotines and taking the back. Bill Cooper is known for brabo chokes and I think Eddie even briefly attempted on one Bill. After that tournament I started thinking that we'd start to see more of a broad game from Eddie but he went back to most guard and leg locks only.

I also thought he and Marcelo had similar pit-bull builds. Not very tall but fire hydrant torsos and giant but flexible legs. I've also seen a fair amount of his rolling footage where he passes and does a lot more than just leg locks. But you're right. In competition there are many instances of him being able to sweep and choosing to stay down. And Marcelo wouldn't have done that.

 

[mataleaos]

Who would win; a Marcelo Garcia born in Gordon Ryan's generation; or a Gordon Ryan born in Marcelo Garcia's generation?

Against each other or just in general? I think both would do well.

• Gordon clearly believes Danaher is the key to most of his success. I think I've heard him say 90% or so. I think someone like Gordon is someone that benefits best from having a coach with can give him a blueprint or system to follow to the letter. Keenan has said rolling with Gordon was like rolling with Danaher using Gordon as his avatar. Maybe Gordon is a creative grappler but I get the vibe that he's mostly a "show me what to do coach" and then he executes it perfectly.

• Marcelo I think of as more of as a more innovative mind when it came to optimizing what was best for his own body and style, as well as thinking outside the box and not just using whatever techniques already existed. I don't know how much help he had developing his arsenal and his game, but you can watch matches of his from 2002 (Demian Maia has been posting old no-gi Marcelo matches this year) that look exactly like 2020 meta-game.
• Spoiler

I think both athletes would do well in each other's eras as long as Gordon had access to an extremely technical coach, and Marcelo had the freedom to be creative.

 

[rmongler]

Against each other or just in general? I think both would do well.

• Gordon clearly believes Danaher is the key to most of his success. I think I've heard him say 90% or so. I think someone like Gordon is someone that benefits best from having a coach with can give him a blueprint or system to follow to the letter. Keenan has said rolling with Gordon was like rolling with Danaher using Gordon as his avatar. Maybe Gordon is a creative grappler but I get the vibe that he's mostly a "show me what to do coach" and then he executes it perfectly.

• Marcelo I think of as more of as a more innovative mind when it came to optimizing what was best for his own body and style, as well as thinking outside the box and not just using whatever techniques already existed. I don't know how much help he had developing his arsenal and his game, but you can watch matches of his from 2002 (Demian Maia has been posting old no-gi Marcelo matches this year) that look exactly like 2020 meta-game.

I think both athletes would do well in each other's eras as long as Gordon had access to an extremely technical coach, and Marcelo had the freedom to be creative.

It was mostly a rhetorical question, to more explicitly illustrate some of the nuances that a lot of people tend to fail to think about whenever topics like this come up (comparing talents from different time periods). Eg, what's going into making them what they are? What qualities influenced their trajectory? Those are far more interesting questions.

The uncritical presumption you so often see is like the 'time teleporter' notion, where both are hypothetically zapped exactly as they are from some point in the precession of Being. I don't think it's too controversial to say i'd give an edge to a hypothetical '19 Gordon vs a '09 Marcelo in an ADCC match; but, that is also the most trivial kind of comparison you could make here. Both guys are great talents obviously, on the other hand though, if you were to ask me, between a Marcelo in Gordon's time, or a Gordon in Marcelo's time, i'd give the edge to a Marcelo in both cases.

 

[mrsenor]

Exactly. It's also worth noting that Marcelo is the smallest athlete to make the Absolute finals at ADCC and he did it by submitting all 7 of his opponents on the way there. 24 out of 27 of his wins at ADCC are by submission and he also did his final 2 ADCCs while posting all of his classes online and his training camp footage. This was unheard of at the time. All of his opponents had a chance to study his game and they still couldn't stop him.

One final point. Marcelo gets bonus points for being a creative on top of being an elite competitor. It's one thing to be an innovator and it's one thing to be a great competitor. It's rare that someone is good enough to dominate the game while at the same time evolving the sport and pushing the art forward on his own.

This isn't even touching on the fact that in the gi Marcelo is a 5x Worlds and a Pans champ.

@JustOnce Marcelo will always be the goat.

Terrere had his number

 

[tekkenfan]

Your assessment of my post is about as good as your assessment of Marcelo’s game.

I wasn’t dissing Gordon at all — he is extremely technical.

so why say anything bad about him your trying to downplay him

 

[BJJ_Rage]

you obviously suck at jj to try to think garcia in 2003-2009 era had the technical ability to fuck with gordon ryan lmao idk what to even say to you after such a retarded statement

gordon is awesome, but hes not better than roger or braulio.

 

[mataleaos]

Terrere had his number

Yeah and so did braulio.
Doesn’t take away his 10-15 worlds and adcc medals.

 

[Peteyandjia]

so why say anything bad about him your trying to downplay him

I didn’t say anything bad about him.

 

[sb413197]

The answer is that young Roger Gracie wins

 

[kenetics]

Exactly. It's also worth noting that Marcelo is the smallest athlete to make the Absolute finals at ADCC and he did it by submitting all 7 of his opponents on the way there. 24 out of 27 of his wins at ADCC are by submission and he also did his final 2 ADCCs while posting all of his classes online and his training camp footage. This was unheard of at the time. All of his opponents had a chance to study his game and they still couldn't stop him.

One final point. Marcelo gets bonus points for being a creative on top of being an elite competitor. It's one thing to be an innovator and it's one thing to be a great competitor. It's rare that someone is good enough to dominate the game while at the same time evolving the sport and pushing the art forward on his own.

This isn't even touching on the fact that in the gi Marcelo is a 5x Worlds and a Pans champ.

@JustOnce Marcelo will always be the goat.

This. Marcelo able to win at the top in both gi and nogi shuts down any goat talk from Gordon.

 

[randomg1t]

isnt quite fair gordon is 20 times more technical than garcia was then garcia was ahead of his time back then but the game the way it is today gordon is the goat for sure

you obviously suck at jj to try to think garcia in 2003-2009 era had the technical ability to fuck with gordon ryan lmao idk what to even say to you after such a retarded statement

i have yet to see a single post from you that isn't dumb as shit. you're amazingly consistent, no matter the subject. it's actually pretty impressive.

as for the garcia vs ryan comparison... garcia is the obviously more accomplished competitor. he ruled his division with an iron fist for a decade, both gi and nogi. he frequently fought and beat elite competitors several weight classes above him. he had some ridiculous 90% finishing rate. and on top of all that, he wasn't a monumental douchebag - in fact he has to be the most beloved figure in the sport.

if you had 2006 marcelo vs today's gordon in an ADCC rules match, i'd definitely put my money on gordon. he's a lot bigger and a brilliant technician in his own right. but that's kind of besides the point.

maybe 10 years from now ryan will have surpassed marcelo's accomplishments. but right now it's not even debatable.