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Marcelo Garcia guillotine vs the norm

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Antnymofo, Aug 14, 2010.

  1. Antnymofo

    Antnymofo Guest

    Lately I have been working with the Marcelo Garcia guillotine choke...wrist in the throat, chest on back. I have had a lot more success with it than the classic version. It feels easier to get and harder to escape.

    Anybody else use this version. Does anyone have an opinion on which version they prefer...and why?
     
  2. Galahad

    Galahad Orange Belt

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    OP, I don't think he does it like that anymore.
     
  3. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    First of all, Marcelo doesn't usually finish it like that anymore. He finishes it like this:


    I did a write up on mginaction on why his Guillotine is the best out there, and he/they seemed to agree.

    "There are tons of videos on here that will help you to actually apply the choke. As far as the extra details, they might be different from person-to-person.

    First off, I believe the hip drop/elbow lift/leg over the shoulder/side crunch/Marcelo Guillotine is absolutely the best variation of the choke in existence. While the Darce/Brabo and the RNC have always been my best and favorite chokes, I'm finding myself currently catching more people with this choke, from more positions, than either of the other chokes.

    As for the blood choke question: You're squeezing the neck very tight, but the elbow flare and lift pulls the forearm right up into the trachea. It cuts off the blood, and I have seen one MMA fighter go to sleep from it, but the primary action for this Guillotine is attacking the windpipe. Matt Arroyo showed the choke and had a student puke on him. Most people tap immediately from the pressure on the throat. There's really no time to think or ride out the choke once it's on. For someone to be able to even stand the pain for 3-6 seconds to even go to sleep would be a great feet.

    The elbow lift accomplishes a few things. It prevents the opponent from bulldozing into you to relieve the pressure. That works with the old-school full guard Guillotine, which I haven't caught anyone with in forever, and I do think it will be phased out as time passes. The elbow lift can also be used to help keep someone on all fours if you are on your knees setting up the choke. Leo Vieira did this beautifully against Ryan Hall at ADCC 2009. Ryan was on his knees in the front headlock, and Leo was on his knees. He lifted the elbow up and over Ryan's back so Ryan couldn't posture up. Then Leo threw the leg over the shoulder and the tap came almost immediately.

    The elbow lift also makes it so that the choke can be finished anywhere. In a full guard Guillotine, if your opponent jumps his body to your left side, and you have his head under your right arm, you have lost the choke. With the elbow flared up, they are typically completely on the choking side of your body (let's pretend the right side again). If they do manage to jump over you before you can throw your left leg over their back/shoulder, they will still be in the choke as they land. The elbow lift allows you to post your forehead on the mat when finishing from the mount, giving you more stability.

    A lot of people don't know what to do with the bottom leg. Most people know the top leg goes over and in front of the shoulder, on the same side as the lifting elbow. Sometimes you can't get it in front of the shoulder and you have the settle for just getting it on the back. The choke should still work. The leg is just to further help them from jumping and/or pressing in to alleviate pressure. I like to take the bottom leg, and shoot the knee in between out bodies, and place the shin against their hip/waistline, with the top of my right foot up against their right hip. This also helps keep them in place. Marcelo does this a lot. The first time I saw it done was against George Sotiropolous at ADCC 2007. I'm sure there's other stuff you can do with the bottom leg, but I try to stick with this.

    Those are some of the details about the workings of the choke that make it so special. Literally all you have to do is get control of their head, and then get to the front headlock. This Guillotine can be finished from so many positions it's scary. If you watch the vids of Marcelo and Ryan Hall rolling, Marcelo finishes several times with Marcelo past his body on the typical "safe" side to be in a Guillotine choke.

    As setups are concerned, this site is FILLED with them.

    ALSO, don't forget the connection between the North/South choke and the Guillotine. They have very separate mechanics and details, but they both have 2 things in common. They both involve heaving the neck getting choked by one arm with one supporting/aiding arm, and they both have a lot of intertwined/similar setups. Many times if someone escapes the N/S choke you have a Guillotine and vice-verse. I believe the Guillotine is technically more versatile, because it can be hit from more positions, but it is very smart to become well versed in the North/South choke if you are really interested in this type of Guillotine. In many ways they go together.

    Hope that helped some. Some of your questions I'm not qualified/can't answer/don't know the answer to."
     
  4. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    Best response to a question I have yet seen on these forums Drew.
     
  5. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Thank you sir

    I would like to add to the OP that the "normal" or "old-school" full guard Guillotine, where you squeeze their neck and sometimes push their body away with your legs, is almost a thing of the past. It is a good technique, but any grappler that is above a blue belt will probably not get caught in it, unless you put in thousands of reps with that type of Guillotine. Bill Cooper still uses it, but often from very creative setups, like literally flying through the air and choking guys out before they hit the mat.

    Marcelo's Guillotine (the one in the video I posted) is honestly an evolution of the Guillotine in every way. It is much tighter, has many more setups, and can be finished from many more positions.

    I know there are people that still find value in the full guard, traditional Guillotine, and it is still a great move for beginners and self-defense. Even MMA, if your opponent is not a BJJ wiz.

    But, if you are interested in being able to tap competitive black belts one day, the Marcelo style hip-drop/elbow-flare Guillotine is the one to know.

    It's an incredibly powerful submission. Even the best MMA fighters are switching to it: Urijah Faber, Nate Diaz, Ben Henderson, Kenny Florian, Dan Miller, etc.
     
  6. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Use the trial code for a free week at mginaction and watch the video:

    "guillotine from front headlock"

    and

    "guillotine from side control, guillotine from butterfly, guillotine from mount"
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2010
  7. DSGhST07

    DSGhST07 Blue Belt

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    trial code?
     
  8. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    I think the promo code is: axebjj
     
  9. lethalazn

    lethalazn Purple Belt

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    preferably behind you, with both hooks sunk in
    Yeah probably because they've already tapped to the Guillotine before you even had a chance to take their back

    I'd also like to add that this move doesn't seem to discriminate against rank
     
  10. kying418

    kying418 Blue Belt

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    Marcelo still does the guillotine a lot like the original poster mentioned.

    If people do not defend, that is his fastest method of doing it- across the throat, chest over head, and pulling up into the Adam's apple.

    He does the forearm/elbow over the shoulder variation in different instances, depending on how the opponent reacts...but if his opponent doesnt react or defend in time, he doesnt need to do that variation.

    To the original poster, if you are already having success with MG's guillotine, then you have already answered your own question- it is faster, more efficient, and less energy-draining than your typical guillotine. Additional, it is easier to apply from different positions as already mentioned.
     
  11. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    I don't wanna waste time arguing over what another man does, but while he still does use the chest on back version, it's certainly not preferred. You can read it from his own mouth on his website, or watch the many matches from 2007-now and the countless rolling sessions where he immediately goes for the elbow-flare Guillotine without even coming close to the chest-on-back variation.

    Whether or not people defend isn't the issue. If it's appropriate to do the 10-finger/ToRex version, that's what you do. If the hip-drop/elbow-flare is appropriate, that's what you do. But Marcelo Garcia has never attempted the version you're speaking about in any Guillotine he's done in ADCC, PSL, etc.
     
  12. Antnymofo

    Antnymofo Guest

    Very good answer. I appreciate it. Thank you.
     
  13. kying418

    kying418 Blue Belt

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    It's all good. I've seen him use both methods countless times in the academy- even recently.

    But I will defer to you :) We all love Marcelo, and thats what counts!
     
  14. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    I wasn't trying to argue buddy. Unfortunately, I have not trained there yet, but I have also seen him do the 10-finger/T-Rex choke many times. In fact, rewatching his match with George Sot., it seems that he did go for the 10-finger first, and then rolled into the typical finish.

    If you want to see a really cool finish of the chest-on-back variation, watch Leo Vieira's first match from the last Abu Dhabi.
     
  15. Mikey Triangles

    Mikey Triangles Bending Joints the Wrong Way Since 1985

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    The classic style guillotine is pretty much outdated technology at this point. It's just too easy to defend in comparison to the newer versions out there. the "Marcelo style" guillotine is tight, and there's a ton of other variations out there too that are all ripping it up, but the classic doesn't really have much of a place in high level competition anymore.
     
  16. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    I agree completely.
     
  17. platfox

    platfox Silver Belt

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    Agreed. Drew's helped me quite a bit in other threads and even took time to write a few pm's to get into greater detail.

    Can't believe Drew just got his blue belt. Seems like he's got a real gift for breaking down details. I'm sure he's gonna make one helluva instructor someday if go that route.
     
  18. betamin

    betamin Blue Belt

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    What is the elbow flare?
     
  19. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    Check out 02:33 of the Matt Arroyo video on page 1.
     
  20. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    what!!! i just assumed he was purple or higher.
     

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